Them first...a conversation with Paul Gavin

In this episode we talk about introversion joy, and the two words secret to getting along with everyone. Welcome to balancing the Christian life. I'm Dr. Kenny Embry. We'll talk about how to be better Christians and people in the digital age. Let's go. For a moment, I want you to think about the person you think about when I say the word, joy. It may be a relative or close friend. The person who comes in my mind is a guy, I go to church with Paul Gavin. I often wonder about why some of the characters in my life are there. But I have a sneaking suspicion. God put Paul in my life to show me what joy looks like. And I'm grateful he did. Paul is a freelance drummer and a musician, composer, bandleader and private teacher. He has taken an unconventional path when it comes to occupation. And he's passionate about that choice. Another passion is his relationship to God. And when I started the podcast, I knew he was one of those guys I wanted to talk to. Paul has a way of taking complex ideas and distilling them to simple explanations. That's a true gift. Paul gets along with everyone I know. So it was surprising to me to find out. He's an introvert. That's one of the reasons I wanted to talk to Paul, I see a lot of places that often treat introverts as simply broken extroverts. And if we can just get them to adopt more characteristics of extroverts, they'll be cured. Well, Paul isn't broken in that way. Paul has an infectious joy that comes through. And I want you to listen to the two word solution, Paul, as to problem relationships. I think you're going to love Paul, like everyone else does. Just so you know, about two thirds of the way into the interview, we had to change tracks. There was a problem with the internet. The audio quality is different. I think you can still understand Paul, but it is definitely a change. Paul, whenever I think of the word joy, you're the guy that I think of? Why are you so joyful?

A lot of things. The first thing is I really liked my work, I teach him play music for a living. And I talk with students a lot. And I have students who want to be professional musicians and students who want to be doctors, but I always remind them, the thing that you're going to do the most in your life, aside from sleep is whatever your job is. It is just so key that the job that you take is a job that you're going to enjoy. People who are rude to waitresses and service workers are people who don't like their jobs. People who are unkind to their families are people who don't like their jobs. Anytime you see that behavior you can, you're able to get to know the person, you can almost always trace it back to someone who really doesn't dig what they're doing with most of their time. I have the best wife in the world walking the planet. She is far better than I deserve. She is kind to me, she supports me, she thinks about me thinks about things that I would want or need ahead of me. And then the last thing is Grace makes me joyful. Knowing that Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father and advocates for me is a big deal. I walk around with a guilty conscience like I know myself really well. And I know all the things that I've done that are not congruent with God's word. And I could recount all of them. I have a great memory of those things. But God doesn't. Yeah, that's amazing to me.

Well, you started off by talking about your job. Could you tell me a little bit about your job? Because you've got an unusual one?

Yeah, so I play right and teach music for a living pre COVID days, I was playing gigs, constantly playing with an orchestra playing with big band jazz band playing private events, playing restaurants playing big concert halls, everything in between.

I've said this to your face. I've said this behind your back. It's almost impossible to hate Paul, Gavin. I don't know anybody who does. You have such an infectious energy about you? You have a great time. And the thing about it is and you know this better than I do? You're an introvert. Yeah. How does that work? Yeah, so

so the the going definitions of extraversion and introversion is what interaction with people does to your energy level? Does it cost you energy to be with people or does it grant you energy to be with people being with people cost me a lot of energy? It's It's exhausting. It doesn't mean that I don't like it. But it costs me energy. And it also brings a lot of anxiety sometimes.

I don't know anybody who talks to you that doesn't walk away happier. That doesn't walk away. Better. That's a gift fall. And what you're telling me is that gift comes at a price to your energy level. Is that accurate? Well, I can certainly agree with the second part. That's a gift Oh. on that one,

but yeah, yeah, it's it's exhausting. And I carry my interactions with people with me It kind of goes back to that guilty conscience. I carry all that stuff with me. And you know, I'm working on releasing that. I don't think that that's healthy. I would recommend that for anybody. But I'm working on releasing that for myself. But you know, all that stuff kind of hangs around on me and I'm a thinker, I think about stuff far more than it deserves.

I'm guessing that you've been an introvert basically, your whole life. Is that correct? Yeah. Okay. What is the misconception that most people have about introversion?

Oh, no, I mean it. introverted people are not a monolith. Like most people, people groups, I guess you might say, they're not a monolith. So I don't know that I could speak for all introverts. I guess if anything, it would be that introversion. You can't quite tell unless someone tells you. In some cases, I'm definitely someone where like, if you see me at a gig, part of my job is to be social with people, you're not going to be able to tell them that I'm an introvert, the way you would tell is if I'm avoiding people, or how exhausted I get my car at the beginning, this weekend, I'm leading a concert in Fort Myers playing the musical Louis Armstrong, with some really fantastic musicians, but I'm leading it so I'm responsible for everything. I'm gonna be a tie brother at the end of that, I'm gonna be fired. That will be like exhilarating for some people. And it's exciting for me. It's draining work to talk with everybody, but I enjoy doing it. It's not a burden. It just has an energy cost.

But yeah, no, I understand that. I teach at college. One of the things the university system has been criticized for is we often treat introverts as broken extroverts, that if only you guys would just start talking more that you would finally find your voice, and that you would finally become fulfilled, you will be cured from your introversion. Do you feel like you need to be cured from introversion?

No, no, I think people are the way they are intentionally in a lot of ways. I talk about like a concept that I talk about students when they come to me talking about like social interactions that surround music in some way I talk about how everybody has holes. Yeah, no one is a complete person where they have everything right. And everybody has different holes. And if we didn't have all the people that we have, we would never be able to create entire pictures together.

What are the things that interests me about introversion is, how do you recharge your batteries?

hiding under something, I need a lot of time by myself. Some of that is spent working on music working on my music fills me up with energy, especially when I have like a successful creative moment that fills me up, going for a walk or spending time with my wife, which is not being alone, but is still recharging. Those are all things that kind of fill me up anything that's like extended social interaction. Oops, yeah, that burns a minute.

I've been thinking about something for I don't know, two or three weeks now. It's that idea that Jesus didn't come for people who were well, he came for people who are sick. Oh, yeah. The Pharisees could never see that they were broken. Man, you get no my thing. Yes, sir. The Pharisees kept on seeing that. Everyone else was broken. But they were the only ones that had it. Right. And by the way, I think in Matthew 23 I think Jesus basically affirms that he said, Yeah, you got the doctrine, right. You guys just think it living it. With that in mind, Paul, are you broken?

all day? Well, okay, so I'm I am and I am not. I am broken in that. I still struggle with it. I struggle with angry reactions. I struggle with unkind thoughts, I battle with those things. And those things are sin. Yeah, fits of anger or sin. I don't think a fit of anger that happens in your head is really that much different. As far as the same thing is concerned. You're supposed to control that stuff. You're supposed to take agency of those kinds of things. Yeah. And take responsibility for those kinds of things and rein them in. The old man is supposed to be dead. But my old man is not quite dead. I'm still knocking them out. And so in that way, I am broken I'm also broken in the in the fact that I can't fix it. I'm not the guy that's gonna be able to fix it. Now I can grow in character as much as I want you to give me 2000 years honor 2000 years, and I keep getting better and better and better and better and better and I am striving to get better I could keep getting better and better and better and better. And I'd still never fixed my sin problem never. I'd still battle with sin I might battle different battles or smaller battles are more or less frequent battles, but I'd still bouncing. But even if I just stopped sending, right, nothing's gonna pay that day. Nothing's gonna pay that day. So Jesus Christ. So in that in that way, I'm very much broken, but I'm not broken. Also, because of what I said before that brings my joy. I know that I'm walking in the light, I know that I'm walking in the light not because I'm special because I'm incredibly unspecial. But because God's word is made clear that if I'm walking in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses me from all sin. Yeah. So I don't walk around in fear of what if I miss something, because I know I missed something. And all of us missed something. Yeah. Pool, we probably miss things every day. Um, but because I can walk in because I can live in the comfort that if I'm conforming myself to Jesus, if I'm walking in the light, if I'm living faithfully unto death, all these different ways that the Bible describes someone who's faithful. If I'm doing those things, I can be confident that I have salvation. The Bible never taught the Bible that the the apostles do not to in Jesus do not talk about salvation, like it's something that may or may not happen. And we'll see. They talk about it as something that already happened, often right, or something that is promised. So the faithful Christians will Well, first we need to understand that whether or not we're faithful is something that is intelligible. God's word isn't that mysterious, God is not trying to trick us is not going to be any mistakes or oopsie daisies on the last day, it's going to be clear. And it's going to be based on what he already said. And he already said that people were faithful gonna go to heaven, so I'm just gonna trust him on it. I'm gonna keep being faithful. And I'm gonna trust him on that. The Old Testament was written to the Canaanites. Did you know that? No, it was not written to the Canaanites. It was written to the Jews. The New Testament was written to non Christians, right? Wrong. It was written to Christians, that means the scriptures are about you. It's they're not about someone else. And we and when I say we, I mean me, because I can do a real good too, we can sit through assignment, that is specifically talking about a hole in our lives that needs filling, so that we can grow in our faithfulness. And imagine somebody else the whole entire time.

There's not a passage in scripture where God tells his people, you know what, I need you to go out and hate people. I really need you to go out and give them what for that's what you need to do. And you know what? They got it coming. And you know, what they do? They do? have it come in God's call is the opposite of that. If they treat you like dirt, love them.

Yes, sir. Because Because how did you treat Jesus before you met him?

I think the other thing, I bring this up probably every episode, the relationship between God and His people, is almost always characterized by the family relationship. That he always uses. Family metaphor is that we are sons and daughters that we are brothers and sisters, that we are husbands and wives. And I one of the things that I would say about, well, a good marriage, you and I've had this conversation before. A good marriage is not made up of a perfect husband and a perfect wife. It's made up of two people who are still trying, right, you know, you're not in a good marriage anymore, when one or both of you have stopped trying. It's not that you guys are either one good, it's that you're both trying to be good. In so many relationships, we keep on saying something along the lines of, you know, if only they would change, our relationship could probably be a lot better.

Man. I avoid that kind of thinking. And she does too, which I'm grateful for. We're very open with each other about that kind of stuff. But yeah, yeah, that's how everyone thinks about everything. But like I said earlier, everyone thinks that right? I think I'm right. Of course I do. What else am I gonna be wrong? Everyone thinks that they're right.

I don't want you to use any Greek word. I don't want you to use any Hebrew word. I don't want you to use any of those definitions. She Tell me. What is love.

But so I can't use other languages. But I can use pictures and stories. Bingo. In other words, it's,

it's awfully easy to say, Well, here's the dictionary definition of what love is. But my problem is, I don't live with a dictionary, do you? I keep on living with people. I keep on having defined love by the people that I'm around that I affect. Yeah. So I'm going to ask you that same question again. Yeah, don't give me a copy. Don't give me phileo. Tell me what love is them first. That's pretty good. I'm not gonna let you get away with to two words,

you're gonna unpack that for me. I'd be happy to because we always think we're right. Jesus is quoted by Paul Paul as saying that it's better to give than receive. There's an eternal truism there, that it's better to give it away. And then to get it. And so if you just put them first whoever them is at the time, practice love and little teeny ways someone trips you Hey, it's all good. No problem. God bless you hope you have a nice day, every single time that someone is short with you or rude with you or something, give them the benefit of the doubt every single time always. them first. If you just make a consistent effort to do that, always them first. And then we're reflecting Christ because Christ said them first.

Well, let me let me put a couple of words in your mouth. You walk in the light because you love God. Absolutely. What if they're not lovable?

I love them first. There's lots of what like there's always a what is the the whole reason that love is challenging is because there's what is Yeah. What if they don't love me back? What if they're unkind to me? What if they don't agree with me on things that mean a lot to me personally? What if they don't acknowledge what I did for them? What if they lie about me? That doesn't matter? I did all that stuff to Jesus. For I became a Christian and after in some cases,

that's exactly right. Done, and they don't deserve it. They don't deserve your love, Paul.

That's correct. Alan deserve his love. I really don't deserve Jesus. So I have to love my like, I just have to love my neighbor. Yeah. Like that's what Jesus did for me. How am I going to do something else?

There's often a distinction made between loving and liking. Do you see a distinction there? Absolutely. How so? Yeah. Oh, I love a lot of people, though. Yeah, I

do. I do. There's a huge distinction there like has to do with my tastes love is what I decide to do. Love is the actions, snap feelings, that's a societal mishap of ours is equating the choice to love someone with you know, how our feelings are feeling at the time doesn't matter how you're feeling like you're supposed to love your neighbor all day, every day. And everything that I'm saying it's very easy to say on a podcast talking to a fellow Christian, and much harder to actually do. And I acknowledge that.

You haven't articulated it yet. But I think you're going to get there really quickly, which is, there's a big difference between simple and easy. Christianity is simple, but it's not easy.

It gets easier. Things get easier when you practice things they get easier. Experienced Christians should look different in newborn babes.

I brought this analogy up earlier. I've done a lot of people who have been married for a long time. And one of the things that I would say is, I hardly ever see a good married couple that was an accident. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. You got a tribe and it's, it's intentional.

There's a difference between love and like, yeah, there's a difference between simple and easy.

Mm hmm.

There's a big difference between joy and happiness.

Yes, I think people use that interchangeably. You know, truthfully, I'm kind of on the last slide. Like we talked before we started you know, we press the red record button. Like I'm actually kind of having a hard time the last couple weeks about some things. But I am joyful. I wouldn't say I'm terribly happy at the time. But I am joyful. Despite how difficult this world is. In the end, it goes from being everything that is to being very insignificant. When the trumpet sound, or when my life and I'm gonna be with God, with Him in His presence. He made a room for me. And I'm on live there. And let's see my grandmother, my grandmother passed away a few years ago, and I missed her I'm going to see her again, because as far as I can tell, she was walking in the light. And walking in the light is an intelligible thing based on what scriptures say. So I'm gonna say I'm gonna see my grandma see my aunt. Now that's my grandma, my mom said, I never got to meet my grandfather on my mom's side. Also never got to meet my grandfather or grandmother on my dad's side, but all of them became Christians before they passed away. And as far as I know, they were walking in the light. So you know, that means I'm gonna see them too. That's hot stuff right there. So if everything is not perfect in this immediate in the immediate right in front of my face, happy stuff is right in front of your face. Even if those things are not perfect. I can still maintain joyfulness based on the far more significant and long standing circumstances that surround

you are absolutely an instance of still waters run deep, my friend. What's your energy level like right now?

I'm okay, this is cool, man. I'm thinking this. I'm thinking this now like like I like I said before, like a small talk kills me man. small small talk kills me softly. But but like having a real conversation about things. That's, that's great. I'm still gonna want to take a nap. Be be clear. I'm not gonna be We'll watch. But no, it was absolutely wonderful.

Paul, I think I know that I think I know the answer that you're gonna give me. How should extroverts be treating people that they recognize your introvert, then First,

I'll just pay attention to people, man, like, just pay attention, which is just the thing that everybody needs to do anyway, just like the practice self awareness. Come on people, like look around, like, how are people around you doing? But is what you're about to say? Or do is that going to have an effect on other people? What's that effect going to be?

The best way to treat an introvert is love them all day, then first, you're going to stick with that one Archer them first.

I think I haven't said that before. In those words, I'm gonna stick with that for good. It's good to make little rules for yourself, then first,

when you internalize the definition, the concept becomes yours. Okay. And it's not that you are changing the concept. It's that you are adopting the concept, man, the first century Christians probably couldn't read the scriptures.

And if they could, they didn't have access to them. So what does Jesus care more about? If you can quote what Jesus said on the Sermon on the Mount? Or if you did what Jesus said on the Sermon on the Mount,

what's the thing that makes your Christian walk? The best?

Man, we got to be careful about the way we talk about salvation. Man, well, we talk about salvation. Like, you can sacrifice everything in your life to be as faithful as you possibly can. And you make one mistake along the way. And right when you made a mistake, the trumpets blow. And now you're hellbound. Why would I become a Christian? I think a lot of people miss out on the joy that the New Testament Church probably experience by creating these hedges around salvation like the Pharisees, the way I think we should understand salvation is most clearly put in the first john, but it's clearly put throughout the scriptures. We have to make it complicated when the old man dies, and we come back up, and then this is why we come back as a different person. So that means our record is clean. All the old stuff is gone at that point. Yeah, it doesn't matter what you did. Before that point, that stuff is gone. Yeah, here you go. Yeah, that your guilt, for the things that you did before you became a child of God is gone. That is already amazing. That is already amazing. You know, that means that means that you can be guilty of the worst things ever. Yeah. And you can be in prison. And someone can bring the gospel to you. And God will forgive you before society. That's what that means. That's what that means. Tell me that's not joke. Tell me that's not joy. But not only that, after you die, and you come back as a new man, Jesus starts talking to God about you. Imagine what that conversation sounds like. There Paul goes, Lord, forgive me. He knows not what he does. Come on. That's amazing. How do you not get joyful when you understand that when you pray, selfish, misguided pray, that the Holy Spirit steps in before your words hit God the wrong way It says, Now what Paul meant by that was, like, if you can't be joyful about that, I don't know how to help you. Like, that's amazing. when Abraham did what he was supposed to do, yeah. He's described as being faithful. And the book of Hebrews says that God counted Abraham's faithfulness, as righteous. I've never been righteous my whole life. I'm not righteous today. I've never been righteous my whole life. Who's righteous? No, not No, no, not one. That's what Jesus says none is right. That's right. That means I'm not righteous, you're not righteous and a righteous person walking the planet. But God counted Abraham's faith is obedient. as righteous.

Come on.

Guys, don't take my discount righteousness, and declare it as real righteous. First, john says He's faithful and just to forgive, that just word is important. Because what just means is that it is the right thing to do. Right? God has declared it such that if you'll walk in the light, then he will make it just to forget. That's not as good as it gets. It's because the scriptures are incredibly clear that once I become a child of God, I have an intimate relationship with him to his son and his spirit. The moment that I die, God's gonna see Jesus's blood out. And I'm gonna look great. That's a gruesome picture, but it won't be gruesome. The guy is gonna see his son, and he's gonna say, You know what? Answer I'm looking forward to that's all Makes my walk easy. By the way, my walk isn't easy, but it makes it easy. That's how we should talk about salvation. I was teaching Bible class, I asked the students how salvation after you become a Christian works, and they had no answer. I feel like if you didn't have an answer to anything, it should be that these are middle school students. They've been sitting in these Bible classes for a long time. If you know the answer to that question, but you can't name the books of the Bible, I think there's something okay with that. Okay, so we're gonna have to have a class on this. We got to have class on this. I don't remember what the curriculum said we were supposed to do. But I know that me and my co teacher did not do that that day. And so I made it my mission to make it clear to them, that after you die, you're raised into newness of life. You have a relationship with the body. You have a relationship with the sun, you have a relationship with the spirit, the blood of Jesus is ever on you. Washington's is the 10th use and first stop washes, not washed. washes. It's continuously happening. No, that means that means today. mean you got one. I don't know when exactly it happened, might have been when we woke up, could have been 10 minutes ago. But Jesus looked up and said, they're due for washing and the blood as Christ cleanses us from our sins. cleanses, made it clear. You know what, I just have to make it certain that they understand that they're being cleansed by Jesus Christ. So they've chosen to be his child. They choose to be God's child. They're being clients. Right. That's what makes my walk easy. That's what makes work easier. So So now, I love I love God so much that I have to walk in life. I have to he's been, he's been so good in ways that I can't describe. And Candace grad. He's been good in ways that I don't know. Here's how I know that. He said, set up the blessing of my wife, like years before we met. Yeah, so so if he said that blessing of yours before we met, what's he up to right now? What's he up to right now? Well, I don't know. But I'll probably be able to tell you in 10 years, and 10 years from now, he'll be up to some more, because he works in favor of his children. Paul, this is what joy looks like.

This is why I say you're the one one of the most joyful people I know.

A lot of good stuff to look at, man, a lot of good stuff to look at the value and weight of the good stuff is always for the Christian is always greater than the value and weight of the hard stuff. There will always be hard stuff. Yeah, it will always be hard stuff. Like I said, I'm having a tough couple of weeks, there will always be hard stuff. But man, blood of Jesus Christ is on me right now. I really came to grips with that and felt comfortable saying what I'm saying explicitly in the last year, I've always like kind of thought around the edges of what I'm now saying explicitly, and clearly. Yeah, but I became clear about it last year, and a lot of that has to do with the virus coming through and all of the things that you know, I Dom carnal things that I value that should not have had nearly the amount of value that they have just a bunch of them has disappeared, then what did I have left, I had the best treasure of all left, but didn't quite give it the weight and value that it should have had. I mean, first john doesn't talk about a middle place, right? doesn't talk about this. People that are walking in the diet, the dark and people who are walking in the light, and then there's the babies, no babies, and there's people who are making a practice of sitting. That's what he says further down in chapter two, making a practice of sitting. And there's people who are walking in the light or not making this and saying that means it's intelligible, I can look at my life, I can look at my record and say, Have I been making a practice of sending? No, I have not been making a practice of sending. I know that. I know. That means that means I'm walking in the light. But what that means is the blood of Jesus Christ cleansing we've all said, Alright, we're good. We're good. Like, it's it's that simple. And that's how we should preach it and teach it. I bet we would save more people. Yeah, you made it clear like that.

I bet you would. Why do you think so many people are reticent to that?

Because we know ourselves too. Well. I know me. I know. I got problems. Yeah. And we feel like it's too bold to just say it's already been decided. Yeah. Dude, like we feel like it's it's almost prideful. Like, I mean, I can't say that I'm going to heaven. Like, God is the judge of that. Yeah, that's true. And God already said how he was gonna judge. So listen to God about trust him.

I think you're exactly right. I think so many people Have heaven within their grasp not because they deserved it but because they were given it and they keep on throwing it away.

Like, that makes God feel like when we talk about his salvation like it's, it's one part grace one part mercy and then four or five parts like lottery sometimes. How cool You were right when you die?

Or how guilt free you felt. What did I miss? What did you miss? That I mentioned them first? Yes, you got that in there. I had all my podcasts with be good and do good. What is good? Well, then first you're gonna stay on that one arch. For the rest of my life, man. I like puts it puts it succinctly. I really like that.

You don't like any kidding. I got an idea, man. That's what this what you needed. Tell me. It's time for balancing the Christian life bumper sticker. And you think and patches, etc. And I hereby give you permission to put them first on whatever you want to do on your merchandise. y'all heard it here first. y'all heard it here. I love it. You see them first somewhere with the with the balancing the Christian lifestyle. Oh, my God.

Alright, well, if somebody wanted to get in touch with you, how would they do that?

Oh, hey, you got a website called music calm. And it doesn't have to be about music. I mean, it can be about music, but it doesn't have to be about music. I'm available to talk. I said anything that you think is crazy or you think was helpful. Reach out, talk to me about it. You're amazing. That's what you are. Paul,

I really appreciate this man. Send me my brother. Well, I hope you enjoyed meeting Paul. I'm a big fan of them burst. And how we should stop guessing if we're in heaven and simply say yes. Thanks, Paul. If you're interested in any of his music, I'll be happy to put some notes in the show notes so you can go check him out. I told you last week, one of the things I've been doing is participating in a chapter a day group started by my buddy Chris Emerson. And it's been a lot of fun. You can find that at Excel. Still more chapter day on Facebook. Well, this week, my good thing is a group that I just started meeting with to help me develop that spiritual maturity idea I've been working on. I've got some old friends like Mark mccrary, Shannon Schaefer, and George Sanchez, as well as some new friends like the Hammonds brothers, and I can't tell you how much I've loved those conversations. There's a real blessing in the friendships we have. I think God helps us a lot through one another. I also want to thank those who support the podcast like George Sanchez, Craig Embry, Kevin Hanson, Mark Russell, and my parents, and Barbara McElwee. I hope this is making a difference for you. It is definitely making a difference for me. Next time I plan to release the second part of my digital literacy series. I've also got my interview with ginger Hubbard about dealing with difficult teens. And I just recently recorded two other interviews. Andy Cantrell, talks about evangelism, and an old friend Jeremy to HUD talks about something that I think falls into the wonderfully broken idea. So until next time, let's be good and do good.