Talking to yourself, a conversation with Mark Dunagan

Transcript

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In this episode of Balancing the Christian Life, we talk about giving yourself advice.

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Welcome to Balancing the Christian Life.

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I'm Dr Kenny Embry.

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Join me as we discover how to be better Christians and people in the digital age.

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I don't care how old you are.

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I suspect there are times when you wish you could talk to a younger version of yourself and give yourself advice.

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We can call these regrets or mistakes, but the fact is all of us know talking to a version of ourselves in the past is simply not possible.

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Sure, it's the plot lines of some interesting fantasy or science fiction movies, like the Back to the Future franchise, but we all understand we just can't have that happen.

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However, what is possible is talking to someone who is farther down life's journey than you are.

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I've talked about mentorship on the program a few times before and the conversation I have today slots very nicely into that topic.

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I decided to talk to Mark Dunn again about advice he would give a younger version of himself.

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I've talked to Mark before.

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He and his wife Cindy have been traveling in their RV for a while now, visiting different churches.

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Mark was in Wesley Chapel, florida, where I live and where he also owns a house, and we were able to get together a few times for a book club that I have with Edwin Crozier and a few others, and also just to sit down and talk for a while.

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Before they began their nomadic lifestyle, mark was an evangelist for many years in the Oregon area.

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So let's just start there.

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Mark, if you could talk to a younger version of yourself, what would you say?

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I'm not sure if I would have listened to me and in fact I might have annoyed the current version of Mark, but I guess here are some things I look back upon the realization that math I was taking in school, that was God's math, that math is the way everything in the universe was put together.

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I often tell people the universe is like Mexican food you know how?

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A burrito and a taco enchilada they all have the same ingredients, but they're just put together differently.

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The universe is like that.

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I understand what you're saying, which is when we look at the world and see all the patterns, this is God's pattern.

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This isn't our pattern and the idea that there's intelligence behind that.

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Again, we're looking at evidence that if we were atheists, we would definitely interpret the same stuff differently.

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I think you're absolutely right.

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I don't know that I would have listened to a 54-year-old guy when I was 16, 17, 18.

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I think there's an arrogance that comes with youth.

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There is, I know, something that happened to me.

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I'm not sure if this happens with other people, but I started as a freshman in high school and you're nobody, I mean you're stripped of all dignity as a freshman.

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The girls don't even see you anymore.

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I think I still looked up to my teachers, but something happened between junior and senior year.

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I came back and a lot of the marriages had changed and all of a sudden I really did it like you guys are supposed to be the ones telling me how to conduct myself and live, and you guys can't even handle your own lives, and that really, I think, knocked me off the rails a little bit, maybe a little bit more cynical, and that really, I think, knocked me off the rails a little bit, maybe a little bit more cynical.

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Can I trust anybody or these people that are trying to teach me this?

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It doesn't even look like—because I remember and I wasn't a Christian there was a dance I was at right One of the school dances after the basketball or football game, yeah, and one of the teachers was chasing the other teacher around and it was almost like the kids were having to watch the teachers.

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So I don't know, I really didn't know what to read.

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I was not a reader.

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I love to read now, but no one really said, hey, you might want to read this or that, and since becoming a Christian, I've tried to catch up.

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What should I be reading, right?

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What are the great works of literature.

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What are?

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the great stories.

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Yeah, I completely understand that.

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One of the things that happened when I was probably 30, I stopped listening to music.

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I just started listening to stuff to try and learn stuff, and I don't know why, but that just became a lot more interesting to me than figuring out another way that somebody is going to talk about love and put it in eight bars of a musical.

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So that's one of the things that changed as I got older.

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I understand we're young and stupid.

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I think we're all young and stupid and we all make a lot of the same kinds of mistakes.

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But when you look at the dumb stuff that I did, I don't know if I'd be nearly as smart as I am now however smart I am if I didn't make some of those dumb decisions.

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Did you make any dumb decisions when you were young?

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Oh, yes, one thing, though.

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Fortunately, I think a number of the really dumb ones maybe did not fully catch me.

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The things I think of is when I was younger, I was busy, quick.

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I really didn't spend much time trying to comprehend the directions, and I've tried to learn from that.

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Now I'm a lot more careful, like when I'm taking something apart or if I'm threading something.

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Hey, these people that engineered this product probably knew what they were doing when they put it together.

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And it's things like reread the instructions a couple of times, right, pull out all the pieces, take it a little slower.

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That's something I've tried to learn.

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The other thing is hey, if you need to address something, you need to address it because it's not going away.

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Thing is hey, if you need to address something, you need to address it because it's not going away.

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Like what problems left unresolved just snowball into a lot bigger problems.

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They can yeah that's absolutely true.

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And then I remember in high school as a freshman, the one thing I quit in life.

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I obviously quit some sinful things, but I quit football and I would not have been a star.

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But I always regret, even if I was set on the bench all year long, I didn't stick with it and that left a bad taste in my mouth that I'd quit something.

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And after that I did freshman basketball, which was no fun at all 18 players, seven of the kids played and the rest of us never played a single minute of the entire season and it was practices at 5.30 in the morning and it was cold and dark and it's the Oregon winter and it's like there were so many times like this is no fun.

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But I stuck with it because I just did not like that feeling of I didn't follow through on something.

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I began but it got hard, it was no fun, but something in me said that's not a good pattern to follow Because there's probably going to be a lot of things up ahead that are not going to be any fun at all.

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That you're going to have to stick with.

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You're talking about persistence and patience and following through with a commitment.

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There are times to quit something.

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My NBA career was never going to get off the ground.

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I'm five foot six and there's a point at which I need to recognize I don't have the talent.

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I'm never going to be an NBA star.

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There are things that I can do that are uniquely my strengths.

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If I keep on trying to be an NBA star, I will pour a lot of effort into something that will never be that good.

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Let me ask you this way when is it a good idea to stop it, and what is it a good idea to?

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keep on going.

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Oh, that's a great question.

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I'm not musically inclined.

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I wish I was.

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I had a little snare drum and my brother started guitar lessons and we buy sheet music for Rolling Stones, wild Horses, right.

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So we're in the back bedroom, he's strumming on the guitar, I'm playing on my little snare drum and our sister-in-law comes in because we had an older brother, like 14 years older, wow.

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So she said what are you guys doing?

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We're just rocking out.

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She sits on the bed for maybe 30 seconds.

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She, after hearing us, stands up, swears and leaves the room and a light bulb went on.

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What made my little brother like maybe we need to have a plan B?

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And I don't know if I have an answer to the question other than just the principles in scripture.

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But when you have parents, have you ever been to a concert?

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And there's sometimes some girl up near the stage and she's dancing.

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It's ugly dancing and she's saying come on, everybody, let's dance.

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No one ever told her she didn't have a mom and dad that said, hey, no one wants to see that.

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If you have people in your life that can do that for you, just say, hey, that's not a good look, and hopefully you have some people that.

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And I think I had a few people growing up that were like that.

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What you're talking about.

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There is a backdoor way of talking about mentorship.

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There are only some people who can get away with saying something like what you're talking about.

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Yes, let me ask this question in this way, which is you're right.

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Everybody needs that person in their life that can quietly say you're being an idiot right now.

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You need to stop that, because that's not good for you, it's not good for anybody else, and you're just going to look more and more stupid.

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How do you start being a mentor to somebody who desperately needs one.

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I think you have to be real and authentic.

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I don't know if you can go out.

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I don't think you can go out and advertise yourself like a mentor available here.

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That would be one thing I think in my life.

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Some of it has maybe shown up naturally.

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And, kenny, this is the frustrating thing.

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There are people that really need that.

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But there's two sides to this coin.

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One has to be willing to take the time to teach, but one has to be willing to listen.

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Over the years, I trained a number of younger preachers in Oregon, which was really a—I would encourage all preachers to—because I think it keeps you sharp.

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I think it keeps you from getting dull and stale and stagnant and maybe stuck in your maybe the way that you present things.

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One of the great things that helps you grow is having a younger guy watching you, and I know a lot of people.

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It's a lot of work, right?

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I'm going to be taking him out to lunch.

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He's going to go camping with us.

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He's going to be at the house.

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To this day, most of the guys I worked with on our trip that we did over the last three and a half four years I stayed in their homes.

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Some of them have come to stay with me.

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Are you really interested in a long-term relationship with this person?

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Maybe that's it.

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If it's like hey, I got five minutes for you, half an hour for you, whatever, and you're just one of many things on my schedule versus you could be part of my family in a sense now.

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And you'll always be part of my family in a sense now, and you'll always be part of my family.

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I think people can sense the difference.

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This guy really does have a genuine interest in what I become, kenny.

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The guys that I thought did the best in the program all who were willing to listen, the guys that really flourished Because they would get a lot of feedback, sometimes from me and sometimes from the congregation, but the guys that really took the time to listen to what other people were trying to tell them.

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Those relationships tended to blossom and bloom, and so did the guys.

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Yeah, here's the trick, and you will recognize this.

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Everybody's willing to give out advice, and not all advice is very good.

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If you're a 19, 20, 21-year-old new preacher and you've got a room full of people that are all giving you conflicting advice, how do you decide what's good, how do you decide what you can safely ignore, and how do you decide they're actually criticizing themselves.

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They're not really criticizing me, because I think all of those things happen.

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Some people will give you advice that they consider is the best they can give, but it's just irrelevant.

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Some people will give you advice that you definitely need to take to heart, and there's some people that are not criticizing you.

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They're criticizing their relationship with their parents, and you just recognize okay, that's not anything I can touch.

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So, again, you're talking to a younger version of yourself.

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You're talking to a younger preacher, and how do you help them sort through all the stuff that may or may not be helpful?

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One thing I would say is look at the source.

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Yeah, jesus said you'll know them by their fruits and hopefully, kenny, if a young person comes to me and says, hey, I got some questions, or whatever, hopefully it's, because maybe, hopefully, they've looked at my life, my marriage.

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Yeah, how I handle myself, I think that says my life, my marriage.

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Yeah, hell, I hand them myself.

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I think that says a lot.

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My relationships.

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Does this guy know what he's doing?

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Yeah, I would tell the young man look at your source.

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The person here is trying to tell you something.

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Does it look like they know what they're doing?

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And if they don't take it in and see what you can find with it?

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And if you find someone doing it right, their relationships look really healthy and their marriage looks really solid.

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And they've been married for so many years and it still looks like they like each other.

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Man that's, and you can tell that.

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You can tell when something's off.

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You can tell when something's off.

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You usually can and I think one of the things that I've heard in the past and you might agree with this or disagree with this never take criticism from somebody that you would not take advice from, and there's a wisdom to that that I really appreciate.

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There are definitely people that are just willing to criticize because criticism is infinitely easier.

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Criticize because criticism is infinitely easier.

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It's easy to take a perfect standard and figure out how you fall short of that perfect standard without any idea that you're going to help them grow.

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That's not helpful.

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But when you come up against the perfect Jesus, whatever it is he's criticizing you on, you need to take seriously, because that's something you really need to work on.

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We don't have Jesus except for in a text.

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Now, how do you decide You're talking about?

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By their fruits?

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You shall know them and that's absolutely good advice.

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But some of these people are people you just met.

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If you're out of luck with having a history, how do you figure out if they have a good future?

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Well, you know what?

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I think it's something I heard about Elon Musk and I'm not necessarily this huge fan, but I thought this was interesting.

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Engineers would come to him and say we have a problem.

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And they said I don't want to hear that, I want to hear we have a solution.

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And the thought was that someone said you can fall in love with the problem, and I think preachers can fall in love with problems, and sometimes you have a sermon and you go the sermon's about the problem.

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Okay, but we know what the problem is.

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What's the solution?

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And I guess one thing I would say is this person who has this criticism for you?

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Do they have any solutions?

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that they're bringing to the table for you?

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Do they have any solutions that they're bringing to the table?

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I think, kenny, sometimes, like if you're struggling with a temptation or addiction, I think you can tell by what people say to you advice or whatever, or solutions.

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I'm looking for someone with solutions and someone who just doesn't want to complain about how bad the world is, or the church or whatever.

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Okay, or we're not evangelizing, okay, what's your answer?

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I want to hear someone has answered.

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I love the idea, too, of going to the text and going back to Jesus.

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After a day I heard a story about the Hungarian Revolution of 56, which doesn't seem like many people.

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They've just forgotten about that right.

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So the people push back on the communist regime, but the Soviets come in with their tanks and troops and just crush it.

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But Western journalists were there for a while and they were interviewing people.

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And there was one girl who said man, they're trying to brainwash us in schools and they're telling us lies.

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And the journalist said to the mother your daughter's different, because a lot of the young people we're interviewing are afraid, sunken, timid.

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Your daughter's very confident.

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What are you guys doing?

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The mother says every night after dinner, we go down to the basement and we read the Bible and we wash their brains of the brainwashing.

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Not everything we hear is good, right, and even from other Christians not all advice that we've—even from solid people, right.

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And maybe I just need to pick up the Bible and read it and give myself a nightly bath, because we all reek a little bit at the end of the day in dealing with the culture we live in, right, the world we live in.

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I'm just going to go in there and try to cleanse myself a little bit of.

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Did I pick up any bad ideas today?

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I don't want those to root in my brain or my heart.

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Oh yeah, boy.

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Yeah, I understand that.

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Going back to that idea of mentorship and helping somebody who's younger everybody at 17, 18, 19, 20, 20, you know, right in there they think they have all the answers before they even know a good question to ask.

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I call it the arrogance of youth, but it's also the arrogance of inexperience.

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What are some experiences that you've had that helped teach you something that was really important?

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I was not raised in a Christian home.

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My mom was a little bit religious, my dad really.

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No interest in it.

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I might've been fifth grade.

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Summer was coming up.

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Mom had signed me up for a vacation Bible school.

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And man was I.

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Why do I have to go?

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Okay?

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So my mom tells a story about long before I was born.

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About a year or so, a cousin I had been in the Navy was an electrician, came back engaged, hit by a drunk driver.

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Okay, in the hospital his kidneys are starting to shut down.

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At that time there was nothing they could do.

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And he looks at his mom and says, mom, what's next?

00:18:09.269 --> 00:18:17.981
And my mom said and she did not have a good answer and she said I don't want you lying in the hospital bed one day not knowing what's next.

00:18:17.981 --> 00:18:19.483
So you're going.

00:18:20.285 --> 00:18:23.509
Man, I didn't have an argument to that, right, I don't know.

00:18:23.509 --> 00:18:30.367
That just stuck with me something that my mom said I need to know what's next.

00:18:30.367 --> 00:18:32.340
I love something.

00:18:32.340 --> 00:18:40.335
I think and maybe this is a good question you could ask someone that you're trying to help and they don't seem to be listening.

00:18:40.335 --> 00:18:45.109
If you keep doing what you're doing, what's going to happen?

00:18:45.109 --> 00:18:48.846
If you don't change anything, then what's the outcome going to be?

00:18:48.846 --> 00:19:01.867
And there was something Cindy said, because I met her and I was not a Christian when I met her and I was probably baptized about a month later after I met her, but I said something very foolish, and why?

00:19:01.887 --> 00:19:03.590
do I need to do what God says.

00:19:03.590 --> 00:19:14.320
And then she responded back because he's God.

00:19:14.320 --> 00:19:17.066
Sometimes it's those simple responses that clarify your framework, to say that's right, he is God.

00:19:17.066 --> 00:19:18.469
And who am I to argue with that?

00:19:18.469 --> 00:19:27.913
If I cannot even alter one of the laws of physics of the universe, who am I to try to come up with my own moral standard?

00:19:27.913 --> 00:19:30.443
That's a very humbling thing.

00:19:30.443 --> 00:19:32.711
Who is God to you?

00:19:32.770 --> 00:19:47.873
Now I would say my and that's a great question, and I'm trying to explore that a little bit more Kenny, from a male side, because if I was a woman, some of the imagery in Scripture would be easier.

00:19:47.873 --> 00:19:51.248
The bride of Christ right, I'm part of the bride and this is my husband.

00:19:51.248 --> 00:19:53.519
It's a little weird for a man, right?

00:19:53.519 --> 00:20:00.973
I think the one that appeals to me now at this point in my life is the idea of a refuge.

00:20:00.973 --> 00:20:18.901
As you get older, you realize all the things that you don't have control over and man, all the bad and evil stuff out there, and some evil person could just sweep in and you don't even know it and wipe you out financially or whatever it is steal your identity.

00:20:19.020 --> 00:20:19.982
That's a scary thought.

00:20:21.125 --> 00:20:22.847
I've read a lot of the Psalms.

00:20:22.847 --> 00:20:26.173
More and often that's the theme is God's my refuge?

00:20:26.173 --> 00:20:27.055
God's my refuge.

00:20:27.055 --> 00:20:34.213
And also, the older I get try to realize that my health isn't my refuge, even though I appreciate it.

00:20:34.213 --> 00:20:44.653
Whatever money I have in my bank, in retirement, that's not my refuge, whatever assets or a home or whatever I have, or how the car is doing or et cetera.

00:20:44.653 --> 00:20:59.569
Because I think when I was younger I put more stock in that and I may have argued, yeah, god was still in there, but these other things were nice, these other things were little supports along with God, and I've tried to reach the point of none of that really.

00:20:59.569 --> 00:21:03.883
I appreciate that, but at the end of the day, that could all be gone tomorrow.

00:21:03.883 --> 00:21:16.672
And if I lost everything tomorrow health, money, et cetera like Job, could I still be able to rejoice that I have a relationship with God and that's more valuable than all those other things combined.

00:21:18.402 --> 00:21:26.951
I agree with you that he absolutely is a refuge, but he's also—both of us have a little bit of mileage on our odometer.

00:21:26.951 --> 00:21:44.512
I'm 54 years old, my health is not what it used to be and all my investments are fine, but I'm looking at my retirement and I'm thinking, boy, this should be a lot more than it is right now and that's not very helpful for me either.

00:21:44.512 --> 00:22:01.661
And you talked a little bit about experiences and I'll go ahead and tell you I don't mind having stuff, I like stuff, but I would much rather spend my money on experiences than on stuff, because I would much rather reminisce with Katie, my wife, about what we did and where we went and things like that.

00:22:01.661 --> 00:22:03.885
Then, look, we got this nice lamp.

00:22:03.885 --> 00:22:06.712
I'll defend that.

00:22:06.712 --> 00:22:11.121
But the thing about it is, at the end of the day, I don't know that experiences do a lot for me either.

00:22:11.121 --> 00:22:20.665
It's relationships, and when I think about who God is, do you think that the relationship with God is the most important thing you got going?

00:22:21.428 --> 00:22:23.553
Oh yeah, life is all about relationships.

00:22:23.553 --> 00:22:26.267
People will say what's the coolest thing you've seen on your trip?

00:22:26.267 --> 00:22:29.737
Nature's gorgeous, but it's the people.

00:22:29.737 --> 00:22:30.839
It's God's people.

00:22:30.839 --> 00:22:35.615
But, more importantly, none of that's going to work unless God's at the center.

00:22:35.615 --> 00:22:47.502
There's something in you that no earthly relationship can satisfy, which CS Lewis, I think, said is proof that you've been created for another world.

00:22:47.502 --> 00:22:53.844
That's where the rubber meets the road, and I think that's an issue of do you trust that or don't you?

00:22:53.844 --> 00:22:59.844
Because I think some people hit that wall, kenny, and say I'm going to stay with my stuff.

00:22:59.844 --> 00:23:06.734
I think every Christian reads a point like okay, am I willing to really put him first?

00:23:06.734 --> 00:23:08.904
Because that's a scary thing.

00:23:08.904 --> 00:23:14.990
Yeah, Right, but man, and I don't know how many people push through on that.

00:23:14.990 --> 00:23:20.124
Jesus said the way is narrow, but man, the reward is.

00:23:20.124 --> 00:23:25.752
I see people and as we've traveled, I've seen people that I would say.

00:23:25.752 --> 00:23:38.090
I went looking for the good as we traveled, and so I tried not to go looking for the bad, but I think I did run into people that were modern-day Josephs and Daniels that really were that.

00:23:38.090 --> 00:23:40.182
Yeah, they're all in Kenny, it's interesting.

00:23:40.241 --> 00:23:45.532
As a child, I ran into a number of bad examples that could have completely turned me off from the faith.

00:23:45.532 --> 00:24:06.165
I remember being in an Episcopal church Bible study as a kid and the teacher was talking to us about knowing the flood and everyone's coloring their picture and he said oh, by the way, kids, none of this really happened and I caught that Nobody else did and I think I put my foot down.

00:24:06.165 --> 00:24:09.102
After that, I'm not going, I'm not giving up my Sunday for something.

00:24:09.102 --> 00:24:09.724
That's not true.

00:24:09.724 --> 00:24:11.107
So that threw me off.

00:24:11.107 --> 00:24:11.530
For a while.

00:24:11.530 --> 00:24:16.767
Had a number of relatives that were very inconsistent, pretty much hypocrites religiously.

00:24:17.220 --> 00:24:32.513
But, kendi, when I was in sixth grade, when I went to public school, your mom and dad could sign a form that a lady would show up maybe once a month, maybe once every two weeks, take you to a little church next door up the street.

00:24:32.513 --> 00:24:36.607
You would have a Bible study and you would sing songs, pray and come back.

00:24:36.607 --> 00:24:38.313
That was allowed.

00:24:38.313 --> 00:25:07.715
We'd been told that week that this woman who probably had been coming and getting us from second or third grade, her son, had died in Vietnam and she had been told that day she showed up and she took us up there and did what she had done before and brought us back, and I put that in the back of my head and said not everyone's inconsistent Mark.

00:25:07.715 --> 00:25:09.838
There's something real about that.

00:25:09.838 --> 00:25:16.814
Maybe one day you'll figure it out, but there are some people that are all in that stuck with me.

00:25:16.814 --> 00:25:18.782
Not everyone's a hypocrite.

00:25:18.782 --> 00:25:22.873
There are some true, genuine people out there.

00:25:23.880 --> 00:25:26.308
I think one of the things that I would say is I'm a hypocrite.

00:25:26.308 --> 00:25:27.765
I know I have been.

00:25:27.765 --> 00:25:37.414
If you are somebody who knows that you could be better, what should you be doing?

00:25:38.220 --> 00:25:41.788
You talked about and I think this is great advice for young people.

00:25:41.788 --> 00:25:43.152
What should you aim for?

00:25:43.152 --> 00:25:45.346
We should aim for the ultimate good.

00:25:45.346 --> 00:25:46.461
What's that?

00:25:46.461 --> 00:25:54.567
That's God, that's a relationship with God, and obviously they might push back and say, but that's going to take a lot of work.

00:25:54.567 --> 00:26:02.031
You read like Ephesians 5, it says walk in love just as Christ loved you or be imitators of me as I'm of Christ.

00:26:03.340 --> 00:26:04.826
And you go like are you talking to me?

00:26:04.826 --> 00:26:12.211
Because you almost wanted to say to Jesus do you really know who I am, my faults and et cetera.

00:26:12.211 --> 00:26:16.343
And he's saying no, I'm telling you to do that.

00:26:16.343 --> 00:26:18.565
You're going like man.

00:26:18.565 --> 00:26:37.394
That's going to take a lot of work, but can you think of any endeavor more rewarding than I'm going to seek to pattern myself like the Son of God in every aspect I can?

00:26:37.394 --> 00:26:43.272
I realize I never could become God, but I'm going to seek to become like Jesus.

00:26:43.420 --> 00:26:45.166
There was a book called my Antonia.

00:26:45.166 --> 00:26:47.873
The writer talked about a character that her brothers.

00:26:47.873 --> 00:26:51.165
As the brothers grew older, they became more and more like themselves.

00:26:51.165 --> 00:26:52.931
I don't want that.

00:26:52.931 --> 00:26:54.586
There's too much of Mark already.

00:26:54.586 --> 00:26:59.468
I want to become more and more like Christ and Kenny.

00:26:59.468 --> 00:27:05.104
Wouldn't it be worth it to throw everything into that and see what would the best version of me look like?

00:27:05.104 --> 00:27:06.948
And not only that.

00:27:06.948 --> 00:27:23.455
But I know I can never pay Jesus back for my salvation, but it seems like at least a nice gift would be the best version of myself through your help, through your word and through the help of your people that I tried to bring about.

00:27:23.455 --> 00:27:28.269
It doesn't always feel comfortable because maybe it feels you've never landed.

00:27:28.269 --> 00:27:29.313
I feel that way now.

00:27:30.563 --> 00:27:32.670
I feel that I haven't landed right.

00:27:32.779 --> 00:27:38.262
I'm still up in the air a little bit, but maybe that's the way it should feel.

00:27:38.262 --> 00:27:52.656
I always want to have that element of me that's not set in concrete yet, that there's still more of me that can come out in a good way, that I'm still moldable, I'm still pliable.

00:27:52.656 --> 00:27:53.498
I'm still moldable, I'm still pliable.

00:27:53.498 --> 00:27:56.420
I know young people and I even get this voice.

00:27:56.420 --> 00:28:03.785
Today, when you hear a voice that will say you can't do it, someone will say something and automatically almost hear yourself saying you can't do that.

00:28:03.805 --> 00:28:04.865
There's more than one possible me.

00:28:04.865 --> 00:28:28.929
There's all sorts of versions of me that could exist, like a low-functioning, a high-functioning, whatever, but there's more than one future and there's more than one me in the future.

00:28:28.929 --> 00:28:54.946
Right, and you should think but I want that to be the best version of me I can make it, and I think that just means that, man, all the things that we do on a daily basis may be like this, because I know there's a number of people like I'm not getting on talking on some podcast, right, I can make a mistake or whatever.

00:28:55.340 --> 00:28:57.628
I would really encourage people to push themselves.

00:28:57.628 --> 00:29:01.446
Do uncomfortable things.

00:29:02.189 --> 00:29:02.430
Why.

00:29:05.361 --> 00:29:12.440
God deserves that, the kingdom needs that, the local church needs that, because that's the people that go out and talk to their neighbors.

00:29:12.440 --> 00:29:26.351
That's the people that go out and talk to their neighbors, or that's the people that try to have the—that's the people that are willing to have the uncomfortable conversations when they disagree and try to work like—I really like the idea, kenny.

00:29:26.351 --> 00:29:27.551
How can we approach this?

00:29:27.551 --> 00:29:29.953
Like in marriage, or you're having a disagreement with someone?

00:29:29.953 --> 00:29:32.375
How can we approach this where we both win?

00:29:32.957 --> 00:29:33.156
Yeah.

00:29:40.511 --> 00:29:41.935
And, more importantly, god wins.

00:29:41.935 --> 00:29:42.817
Does God need to win?

00:29:42.817 --> 00:29:48.604
Let me rephrase that, kenny, he is going to win.

00:29:48.604 --> 00:29:52.520
The only question is will he be glorified in my life and in the church I'm a part of, in the family I'm a part of, in the marriage I'm a part of?

00:29:53.063 --> 00:29:53.746
Maybe that's it.

00:29:53.746 --> 00:29:57.790
What kind of insecure God do you serve that needs glory all the time?

00:29:58.559 --> 00:30:00.605
You know, in the book of Acts, chapter 17,.

00:30:00.605 --> 00:30:16.923
It really is interesting where it says that God doesn't need anything but at the same time he is glorious, I mean, and I have the chance.

00:30:16.923 --> 00:30:19.025
I guess it's like with marriage.

00:30:19.025 --> 00:30:27.576
I don't know if marriage needs any more reinforcement, but it would sure be nice if my marriage is honoring to the institution, Right.

00:30:27.576 --> 00:30:35.006
So I don't think it's an aspect that he's vulnerable on that point or jealous on that point.

00:30:35.006 --> 00:30:35.707
It's just that's who he is.

00:30:35.727 --> 00:30:45.496
that he's vulnerable on that point or jealous on that point, it's just that's who he is, and in light of everything he's done for us, I really need to tell other people how great he is.

00:30:45.496 --> 00:30:55.928
I think that does me a lot of good too, because I think something's going to be glorified, kenny, something is going to be glorified You're right, I don't know.

00:30:56.308 --> 00:31:01.496
I've used this quote several times, which is Cecil B DeMille, when he was promoting the Ten Commandments, the movie that he did.

00:31:01.536 --> 00:31:04.890
Oh yeah, that was family lore in our family.

00:31:04.890 --> 00:31:08.403
Yeah, with Yul.

00:31:08.423 --> 00:31:08.585
Brynner.

00:31:09.559 --> 00:31:13.501
My daughter, Ashley, can quote vast sections of that movie.

00:31:15.142 --> 00:31:23.525
One of the things that Cecil B DeMille said and I don't know if it was originally with him or not, but one of the things that he said is we do not break the Ten Commandments, we only break ourselves against them.

00:31:23.525 --> 00:31:27.906
Yeah, and I think when it comes to, does God need our adoration?

00:31:27.906 --> 00:31:28.946
Does God need our glory?

00:31:28.946 --> 00:31:30.288
No, god didn't need us.

00:31:30.288 --> 00:31:36.589
The fact of the matter is, god was doing just fine without us and will do fine without us, but we need God.

00:31:36.589 --> 00:31:40.031
And when we start thinking about why do we need to glorify God?

00:31:40.031 --> 00:31:41.811
He didn't need it.

00:31:41.811 --> 00:31:43.512
He never needed it.

00:31:44.232 --> 00:32:09.315
But if you can't get off your high horse and recognize that you're an idiot and that your decisions are not usually that good, and there's somebody who's smarter than you are, that has already figured this out and he's willing to give you answers if you look for the answers, but he's not going to force you to take those answers If you want to make yourself like Pharaoh, and that this is I think this is the way God hardened Pharaoh's heart.

00:32:09.315 --> 00:32:20.227
He thought of himself as a god and because he thought of himself as a God, when Moses says, you need to let these people go so they can worship me not you, me.

00:32:20.227 --> 00:32:26.871
Pharaoh could not respond to that, because he already thought of himself as equal to or better than the God that we have.

00:32:26.871 --> 00:32:28.741
Who was he hurting?

00:32:28.741 --> 00:32:32.691
He wasn't hurting God, he was only hurting himself in that situation.

00:32:32.691 --> 00:32:34.054
Does that make sense?

00:32:34.299 --> 00:32:37.266
Yeah, and the entire nation, you know, kind of went down with him right.

00:32:37.266 --> 00:32:50.622
To me, kenny, that story is so amazing because after the death of the firstborn, and they let him go right, yeah, but then they have a change of heart like what have we done?

00:32:50.622 --> 00:32:55.224
Well, could we start with a review of the Nile turned to blood?

00:32:55.224 --> 00:32:58.685
Remember that and remember the death angel shows up.

00:32:58.705 --> 00:33:03.808
Because when I look at that because a lot of people go, why would you do it?

00:33:03.808 --> 00:33:09.593
Because most are not going to obey you and all of that type of stuff.

00:33:09.593 --> 00:33:31.862
But it's almost like God says but people need to have at least the opportunity of this sort of life, right, man?

00:33:31.862 --> 00:33:33.106
That is a rip.

00:33:33.106 --> 00:33:58.929
And when I realize that I'm going okay, so God doesn't play it safe and I want to live in such a way that there's many years between me and my older brother, like 14 years, wow and my parents were even thinking about adopting and my dad was getting close to 45, and they were going to cut him off at that time adopting and my dad was getting close to 45, and they were going to cut him off at that time.

00:33:58.929 --> 00:34:02.632
And my mom starts not feeling well and goes into the doctor and he says you're pregnant.

00:34:02.632 --> 00:34:05.174
She says I can't get pregnant.

00:34:05.174 --> 00:34:07.777
We've been trying to have a baby for 14 years.

00:34:07.777 --> 00:34:13.380
You're pregnant.

00:34:13.380 --> 00:34:17.989
But then he says don't get any hopes up for this child, because this child's probably going to be born, born dead, because there was a rh negative factor between her and my dad.

00:34:17.989 --> 00:34:36.228
That was really bad, or he's going to be severely you know, mentally disabled and my dad was about 45 and I was born thanksgiving day and bright, healthy, and my dad wasn't really excited about being a dad again.

00:34:36.228 --> 00:34:37.231
He has this 14.

00:34:37.231 --> 00:34:41.048
He's getting ready to retire from the navy right right now.

00:34:41.090 --> 00:34:47.463
Here comes another baby, but this is something that I was told years after he passed away.

00:34:47.463 --> 00:34:51.847
But my dad said what just seemed like mark wanted to be here.

00:34:51.847 --> 00:34:56.592
I'm hoping that's still my attitude.

00:34:56.592 --> 00:35:08.746
Am I living in such a way where I just really look like, hey, I want to be part of this and I don't want God regretting my existence.

00:35:08.746 --> 00:35:10.789
I'm glad Mark was born.

00:35:10.789 --> 00:35:13.373
I'm glad Mark had the opportunity to live.

00:35:13.373 --> 00:35:18.427
So, with all the things that comes at you in life, that's really what I'm working on.

00:35:18.427 --> 00:35:21.672
Is Mark's still happy to be here to be part of all of this?

00:35:21.873 --> 00:35:34.052
Yeah, when you're young and we've been talking around being a mentor and talking around, but honestly we're also talking very directly to.

00:35:34.052 --> 00:35:48.070
These are values that younger people need to understand and they won't understand them when they're young Because it takes a couple old guys like you and me to tell them that these are roads that have destinations.

00:35:48.070 --> 00:36:02.561
But once you end up there the 401k not a bad direction to go, but once you end up in 401k land, there's so much less than it can offer you.

00:36:02.561 --> 00:36:06.815
Taking all the vitamins, make sure you're getting all the exercise.

00:36:06.815 --> 00:36:16.094
There are advantages to this that it does make your body not wear out quite as quickly, but there are limits to what that will be.

00:36:16.094 --> 00:36:27.050
If you're talking to somebody who's younger and you know this because you were younger what priorities have changed over your lifetime?

00:36:28.353 --> 00:36:28.652
Time.

00:36:28.652 --> 00:36:39.507
You don't have as much time as you think you have, yeah, so I don't do any television and I'm not telling people that's bad, but it just with the time I have left.

00:36:39.507 --> 00:36:43.248
Yeah, Wow, there's a lot of books I haven't read yet.

00:36:44.041 --> 00:36:49.965
Or podcasts or interviews, yeah, or things with really smart people or whatever it may be.

00:36:49.965 --> 00:37:01.514
You know, one is time management Right, one of really redeem the time and make every opportunity count.

00:37:01.514 --> 00:37:05.329
The other thing I think would be is do not resent the unexpected.

00:37:05.329 --> 00:37:06.873
That's something else.

00:37:06.873 --> 00:37:11.572
I tried to change that about myself because that means that I'm going to learn something.

00:37:11.572 --> 00:37:18.094
Hopefully I'm going to grow, have a chance to exercise some patience.

00:37:18.094 --> 00:37:26.954
Don't resent difficulties, the unexpected things not going as planned in your life.

00:37:27.135 --> 00:37:27.375
Yeah.

00:37:28.760 --> 00:37:37.353

Talking to yourself, a conversation with Mark Dunagan

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