The thing about raising boys...a conversation with Phil Robertson and Josh Creel

In this episode of Balancing the Christian Life, we talk about raising boys. Welcome to Balancing the Christian Life. I'm Dr Kenny Embry. Join me as we discover how to be better Christians and people in the digital age. So my older son, jake, asked me a question the other day. He'd been reading a book by Marcus Aurelius and he asked so, dad, what do you make of the Stoics? First of all, I love that question. I know there are conclusions the Stoics reach that I don't agree with, but the idea of being someone who takes responsibility for your own development is one of those things I think both Stoicism and Christianity share in common. I thought it was a smart question of Jake to see some of the similarities that he wanted to talk out with his dad, but I also knew that this was a conversation I would never have with my daughters. It's not because they're not bright. Both my daughters, emma and Abby, are extremely smart but there's just a difference between raising boys and girls, and the idea that my son Jake would want to talk about things like philosophies or computer systems falls in line with what my experience has been with both. I believe men and women are just different. So what is that difference? I mean from my own history, I know being a dad to sons is different than being a dad to daughters. I wanted to talk this out with a couple of guys who have raised sons and, yes, I plan to do the same for daughters at some point, but that's not today. First of all, I brought back a good friend, phil Robertson. Phil has been evangelist for a long time. He's married to his wife, cheryl, and works with the Valrico Church outside of Tampa. His son, gray, has recently moved out and established his own life. Josh Creel has become a good friend and is the main evangelist where I worship in Tampa. Josh has two boys, jared and Ethan, who are 14 and 11. And he lives with his wife, jana, right outside Tampa. I want to talk today about raising boys because I think there's a lot of difference between raising boys and raising girls, and I picked both of you guys for very specific reasons. Phil, you're somebody who has a son that is out of the nest but not out of your life. I think what, in some ways, being a parent to an adult child is even more complicated than raising young children. Josh, you're in the thick of it. How old are Jared and Ethan?

Jared is 14 and Ethan is 11. There you go. And Phil, how old is Gray at this point?

Gray just turned 25.

Nice To put my situation on the table. I've got two and two. I've got two boys, two girls. Jake is 21 and Kant is 15. I can speak for myself and I feel fairly confident I'm speaking for you guys as well. You become a parent before you are really ready to become a parent. What makes for a good parent? That isn't overindulgent nor is too strict.

I was 31 when we had Jared. What you said about not being ready to be a parent isn't limited to age. It's not just those who are 22 or 21, however old they were. I'm going to go straight to Scripture here for my part of the answer. One of the passages that I always go to when thinking about parenting and particularly about being a father, is what God said of Abraham as far as him being a father to his people, and that was in Genesis 18 and verse 19. And there's a couple of things that kind of stick out to me. God says I have chosen him. Now, granted, this is Abraham. God is choosing him specifically, and I think all of us, if we remembered that we are in some way chosen by God to raise these young men and women. I think that's borne out in Scripture, because you look at Malachi 2 and, granted, that's the passage we go to to talk about divorce, and I really like how the English standard reads it there, because the point that the prophet is making is what was God looking for in these unions and why is God so upset that the men at that time were divorcing their spouses? It says I was looking for godly offspring. God has chosen Abraham and again, in some ways, god has chosen us. I'm entrusting you with these souls, and so the first step, then, is remember that these aren't just my children, they're the children God has given to me. And then you move further in the text. So God chose Abraham that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord. So I'm given authority. God gives me that authority as a father, but he doesn't give me the authority just to say, all right, kids, do what I want you to do. That's not the point. The authority is given so that I can instruct them in the ways of the Lord, and hopefully that kind of helps me to balance that being too permissive or too strict, because I want them to respect my authority, because I want them to respect my authority on small things, so that when I get to the bigger things, that I have some weight there, because I'm now trying to instruct them not just in OK, keep your room clean, but here's how you ought to treat that young lady, here's how you ought to treat your teachers, and on down the line. So I go to Genesis 18, 19 just to kind of, I think, help strike that balance.

I appreciate exactly what Josh is saying, because that is the foundation of any relationship, but especially a relationship as parent with child. It's all going to go back to our humble walk with the Lord and that we're willing to be instructed ourselves. We began this question, kenny, with respect to the idea of our age and when we become parents. Like Josh, I was 30. And I think we all have these preconceived ideas of what we're going to do as a parent, how we're going to handle things, and then that first day that you have this child in your arms, all that goes right out the window and you're just scared to death. I can literally remember praying beside Jill's bed saying Dear Lord, please don't let me mess this up. I will confess, first and foremost, I lean on Cheryl. Here's Cheryl, help me, you got this, just tell me what to do. But at the same time, it's the idea of knowing that the Lord has entrusted me with a soul and he's not just going to throw me out there without any guidance. If I can lean back on his wisdom, I will get some of those answers. I will see in stories whether it's the prodigal son, whether it's the way he related to David, whether it's the way the Lord shows his relationship and his own ministry and the way that he relates to his disciples and even those who are tax collectors and sinners. I will understand the boundaries of strict and leniency by just looking at him and helping that carry over into my relationship with my children. Generally, we tend to parent in relation to the way we were parented, and that can be a good thing and a bad thing. If you had great parents, well then maybe you're going to have some great principles and guidelines to follow. If you had challenging parents, well then you're going to simply parent on what you saw not to do, and I get that. But children are not easily cut and dry projects where here's one way that's going to work for every kid. It's an art, not necessarily a science at times, and we have to respect the individual boundaries of each individual heart. And when they start having personality, that's a wonderful thing because they can begin to communicate with you. But it's also a frustrating thing because immediately you see all right, we've got an attitude problem. All right, we have this problem. Oh, we're going to have to work on this. It's funny how quickly that rears itself in our personality.

I think one of the things that I would say and I want to have to throw my hat in the ring a little bit here, because I've got kids and one of the things that I know is, if I were to treat Emma the same way I treat Jake, it's just not going to work. One of the things that I know is I cannot force Emma to do anything, but I can force Jake to do things, and if you start looking at all Jake's favorite things, he didn't go into any one of those things voluntarily. Katie and I forced him into all of those things and then they became his passions. I can't do that same thing with Emma, but likewise I can't do that with Abby either. I can't force them into those things, but I can with Jake and can't my two boys. I don't know why, but I guess one of the things that I would say is learn your kid, because some of them need to be forced to things and when we come up with these, just listen to your child. Some children you need to listen to and some children you need to say this is where you're going, you're going to be there at 10 o'clock. Tell me again what time you're going to be there, and some people need that level of instruction. Emma, on the other hand, had the alarm clock going three hours before the event and was very much on top of things, and again it's that my problem was I thought I was going to have a lot more influence on how my children turned out. I ended up inheriting children that already had a personality and already had something going, and I basically had to, number one, adapt and adjust to how they already were. Does that make sense to you guys, what I'm saying here?

It does. I get too much in the providential aspect of this. But going back to even that point about God is entrusting us with these souls. Well, maybe the reason why we have these individual personalities that we do is because God's also saying yeah, your character needs a little help here. My first son is the chill son. He's the son that always all I had to do was look at him sternly and he'd kind of melt. My second son is bless his heart. He's been the subject of many a sermon illustration and we're still working on him, and maybe that means just God's working on me a little bit here.

I think God definitely works on us through our children. There's no doubt about that. But I think it's kind of one of those things too is all of us have been fearfully and wonderfully made and each of us are unique, totally different in a good way, and our personalities whether we're rule followers or we're a little bit of those who have a tendency to be rebellious those are always going to be blessings and curses in those personalities. Our role as a parent is first of all and Sheryl and I did this we sought to identify the unique personality of our children. This was actually before the Enneagram became a big deal, which, by the way, I love the Enneagram. I think it is very helpful in so many respects to learn but nonetheless, when you learn your child's bent, when you learn your child's natural behavior and thinking process and you see that, then you mold your parenting to the needs of that personality. And I think ultimately it begins with this and to me this is the most important thing all parents need to realize Parenting is a full time job. It is a full time If you want to be successful as a parent or you want to be the best parent you can be, you have to recognize this is your first mission filled. This is your utmost responsibility. This comes before everything else and you need to treat it like that. And while you have those wonderful moments where you can celebrate your victories, you're going to have those moments where it's greatly aggravating. The issue isn't always with the child. It can be with us. This is our moment to be what the Lord wants us to be to adapt and help this child adapt in their personality and emolding that personality. And we can't force them into a particular personality. You're not going to be able to take an Emma and Emma in many ways is like our Jill. You're not going to be able to force them to relax and just go with the flow. That's not their bent. They're the kind that get up real early and I mean we homeschooled and Jill would have got up at four in the morning if we let her to start working on school and have it all knocked out. And she had everything organized and I'm like who is this child? Where did she get this? In many ways it was awesome, but in another way I was like I'm not getting up at four. I'm not doing that with you. You're going to have to stay in bed until a certain time. But we had to respect her bent and try to let that work in her favor and our favor. But at the same time I'm not going to turn to Gray and say, all right, gray, jill's getting up at four, you need to do the same. That wasn't going to work either, and so recognize those blessings and curses, but it's a full time job and it was what's interesting. Also and I'm sure Josh is seeing this right now those personalities in your boys are going to change as well and you're going to have to adapt with it, especially when they get up into the puberty age and then start girls that start becoming part of their lives. Okay, you're always calling audibles, but it's enjoyable nonetheless. It's enjoyable nonetheless. Parenting is a great joy.

Well, it's a big challenge as well. I think about my boys, especially right now, because we're talking about boys. There's so much of me that I see in them, but where I get really hung up is when I don't see me in them. It's where I cannot relate to what they're going after. And I will say this I'm talking to you guys. Both of you guys have spouses, and if you are not in a position where you have the other person that's in that position, that's in the trench with you, because, phil, you said this is a full time job. No, it's not. It's three or four full time jobs, phil, a wild advocate of it. It takes a village, but it really does take a lot more people than just two parents, because between Katie and I we probably make one sane individual, but there are things that Katie sees that I don't. And if you're somebody who's in a oh I don't know single parent situation, you need to start recruiting the help of other people because, as you say, this is more than a full time job. It takes a lot to basically oversee the development of one competent person, much less create one man. Do you see what I'm saying there?

Oh, act absolutely. And I will say this I'm glad you brought this up. I can't imagine trying to do this as a single parent. So to all the single parents out there, especially those that are godly parents, god bless you. You have my great adoration in praise and I want to help you in every way that I can. But I will say this although I have Cheryl, and she is a much better parent, actually, she's just much better at everything to me, and that's not a joke, that's just reality. Yeah, but even though I have her, we didn't rely on just each other with rearing our children. We're talking about boys. So here's, here's my life and here's what I wanted to pass on to Our kids in my life. I just went back and listed all the people who had major impacts on me that my parents put in my life, yeah, to help mold me and guide me. I have my Papa John. I have my dad, clear and foremost. I have his voice with a wonderful dad. I had my scout master James Harris. I had coach David boss, who pushed me and pushed me and pushed me to wrestle, and I was just getting totally destroyed all season until I got into the city tournament and I made it to the finals and when I lost in the city finals, that godly man walked out in the middle of the ring and just hugged me and wouldn't let me go. I still remember that to this day, the impact he had on my life. I had Glyn Greg, who was always talking to me at church. I had Greg buyers, who was one of the college kids growing up who always showed an interest in me. I had John Kilgore, my camp director, and I remember being inspired by the camp friends when I came home from camp that I needed to kick it up a notch. I had West Moss Busbur, patrick sales and my friends from FC. I mean you could just go on and on and on. And I think, if we'll understand his parents, our job isn't always to do all the work. If I can put my kids in environment where others can help me in that work, not only will that take some load off my shoulders but it'll also help my children grow and develop, and especially my son and I will say this a very dear friend of ours who just became a part of our life a year and a half ago. Dan Barker Passed away this week when my son moved to Birmingham and was trying to decide where to go to church, and Dan Barker had recently moved to there to do personal work at this stadium. Gray met Dan, dan took him in and Dan inspired him because they had so much in common. They both love basketball, they both love personal work. The Dan became a major influence in his life this past year and a half and I just thank God every day for men like Dan Barker who inspire others, and especially my children. You do something nice for me. I thank you. You do something nice for my children. I'm indebted to you for the rest of my life. Right, and to me that's. That's one of the godly secrets that God gives us. I would say it does take a village if you have the right village and you put the right people in that village to help, mentor and guide your children.

And that's that's to your point about. You know our single parents and in particularly, you know what we have at universities. We've got more than a couple of single mothers and they're raising. They're raising sons you know that their mothers are great influences in their lives. But what we as the men of the congregation have to do is we have to step in and help give some guidance there as well and help nurture those, those boys as well. Because you know you go through your list and I'm just thinking about the people that you know have made such an impact on my sons. You know we have one elder in particular, tommy Matthews, who has just had a huge impact on my son's life. I love the fact that my boys love Mr Phil. I mean, I may not like Mr Phil that much, but my boys love Mr Phil and you know they look forward to camp for that reason and you know, if we have an event and Phil's coming, well then that's just the biggest thing in the world because Mr Phil is coming. I try to, I try to hide the animosity. But that point about the village, you know that's that's what God gives us, that's what God gives us in the church and I'm thankful for those men who play the role in my life and, like Phil is talking about those, those men who have taken an interest in my sons.

In my opinion, boys more than girls have to model. They look toward people who are modeling something they don't do as well with instruction. My boys love to basically rebelled instruction, but when they see somebody older than them doing something, they will usually copy and and ape what they're doing. My girls are exactly the opposite. If you tell them exactly what to do, they'll usually follow it to the letter, but often they are in in. They are intentionally not modeling because they want to be their own person and I think one of the things if you're a single parent, realize that again. I would say this is probably more individual than it is, than it breaks down by gender. I think my boys are just people that like to watch what's going on around them, and my girls are probably people who are, again, like you call and say it, phil More rule followers. They like to know what the rule is so they can follow the rule. But if you're somebody who's in a situation and let me be very clear about this, it's often mothers I number one thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. God bless you in that endeavor. And number two reach out, because men and women are different and men and women see things differently. Take advantage of the people that are in your congregations. Take advantage of guys who are just expressing an interest in your kids, because there's a modeling in my opinion, that is partially gender that boys, in my opinion, are trying wanting to look up. That's why we have Michael Jordan, that's why we have LeBron James as and you know my girls, they know the singers, but they're not trying to model. They might, they might want to get the same dress or hairstyle, but other than that, they're not trying to get the model their lives after these people. My boys are, though, and they won't say that do you? Do you agree with that?

I'm gonna go ahead and confess here. Whenever it comes to any discussion of the difference between sons and daughters, I'm out because I don't know, and in fact, just last week, janna, looking at an interaction I was having with a four year old girl at church, said immediately after interaction it's good we didn't have daughters, because they would wrap around their finger, which is probably true. So I have to have to turn all, all differences between sons and daughters to you guys.

Well then this is all on you.

Phil. Well, I can only speak for my two kids in that regard, but that would be appropriate for Jill and Gray. Jill is truly the rule follower of you. Can tell her exactly what to do, but you can't be from it. She doesn't. Like you've said, this is, this is the way it is, if you've said it. And Gray was just so amazing. I never had to put together a Christmas toy Because I would have run half the fun for him. That dude can sit down and he can follow, he can see the instructions. He knocks it out, and I think that's also the way he learns is he can see that and grow to it. If you would, let me just kind of get into sure what I've noticed, though. I know we don't want to talk about culture and the failures of culture, but we definitely have A father crisis in our world, and you can always see that there is going to be a great challenge in the development of any child when the father is absent or the father is not being what God is called him to be. There can be a lot of fathers who are actually in the home who are more detrimental to the growth of a child than it would have. They would just get out sometimes, but nonetheless, we have a father crisis. What that does is it puts our boys especially the disadvantage to grow, to see what God is called them to be. Because I see boys. I see boys today in great need of someone who will hang out with them, who will rough house with them so that they can get out that aggression and play with them, to be adventurous with them and challenge them and be there through the challenge to grow and develop, whether it's mentally or physically, emotionally or socially. I think boys find great confidence when they can win, when they can overcome, when they can climb that mountain, and they need somebody in their life who's always going to be putting that mountain in front of them and either climbing it with them or helping them achieve those things, because boys need achievement. Yeah, and that's one of the things that we definitely try to do it camp, and you can see the transformation in these young men when they are put to the challenge and we celebrate them almost like Greek gods when they overcome some great physical challenge and do something. But you can just see their countenance, even the way they walk, change when they've overcome something and they've made it to the top and our boys need that. I think God's given men the need to win, the need to be adventurous, and we need fathers who are going to help them develop that and use that in a way that glorifies him and becomes of service to their own families as they grow up.

Yeah, I saw that with my oldest Phil's camp illustration that that's where it was. He got into this cabin where they started wrestling his first year. He lost his first match and I didn't even know this, but for the next year he's doing push ups and sit ups in his room every night. When I find out, like what, I mean that's great, why are you doing? It's like I don't want to lose and he didn't. He didn't win, but I mean he won his first match the next year but he didn't go through and like win the whole thing. But he is so proud of that and that achievement and I tell you on this discussion, I think cause Phil's absolutely right. There's a crisis of fatherhood and I think what you even see in popular culture is because of that. There are some voices that have come to the forefront that are really getting a lot of attention. The joke has been told and I think it's somewhat accurate. If you did, a Venn diagram of Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate followers is a perfect circle and the point was that, well, those guys are both advocating similar precepts take responsibility, be a man. Andrew Tate leans fully into the toxic masculinity, but what Jordan Peterson is not. But the core message is in some way the same and, of course, that's what I've got to do with with my sons is not just the yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna achieve, we're gonna win, we're gonna be responsible and we're gonna take ownership, we're gonna put effort in that. I sat down the beginning of this past summer and said boys, one of the main things I can ever get across to you in life is try, work hard and try. If you just do that, that's gonna mean a lot in your life. We start when they're young. Okay, you need to be responsible for the dog, you need to be responsible for your room, but the point is we're trying to raise them so that, as they get older, they're responsible for the bigger things. They're responsible now for their choices and entertainment. They're responsible for you know how they're gonna act toward us. That's that's what's missing in so many lives and that's the task that I have in front of me is how do I make them responsible?

I think and rotate has been really good at diagnosing a problem and is given everyone the wrong solutions. I am definitely somebody who is my. My bias is definitely toward Jordan Peterson. Everything he's written.

I tried reading one book and I was like I can't.

But the thing about it is I like I like the place that Jordan Peterson goes with this, which is that idea of adopting responsibility, basically take the blessing of having responsibility, and I think especially for boys and I don't know why this is true, but but I do think that it is true. I think boys do better when they adopt responsibility. Jack a willing will talk, will call talk about extreme ownership. I will say this I think Jack a willing goes a little bit too far in that direction because some things are not in your control. But the things that I think that I would say is the thing that I like about what Jack willing has to say Is is that if you treat everything as if it was under your control, you will be far more powerful and and far better off than pretending like everything is out of your control, because then you're arguing for your own victim hood. And I guess one of the things that I would say in this kind of goes directly to one of the things I want to talk about. You guys have already invoked the term toxic masculinity. I'm not interested in in In taking on all the things that that society has said. This is what's wrong with men I would much rather address what men need to do, right, but let's go ahead and give it its do. What is toxic masculinity and how have men been dangerous or have they been Unhelpful in in society? I'm?

not as up on Andrew Tate. I do know Listen to a lot of his stuff.

Bill, you're the perfect person for Andrew.

Tate. I mean, I know who he is, but I actually have to confess I probably listen more to Jordan Peterson and I'm kind of drawn to his message on responsibility and whatnot. But I, society's toxic masculinity is just like a shotgun. It's all over the place. Yeah, and the challenge is no longer is dad, the father defined? I know we kind of mock the fifties Ozzie and Harriet, my three sons and all those caricatures that you saw of the men in those days but one thing you have to see even in society there was a role, there was a definition, there was an expectation of fatherhood. That's totally out the window now, which is so sad. I would turn the attention back to just looking at scripture when you listen to, like Solomon speaking to his son and the proverbs my son, listen to me, listen to me what you're seeing in the world around you, and I think even in that day and age they struggled with the toxic masculinity. I think would be fair and you see that, especially when Israel's takes a nosedive spiritually. But he's like listen to me, don't fall victim to the illusion of what you're seeing in manhood around you. This is manhood that you seek wisdom, that you seek to surround yourself with godly people that you seek to. First of all, take accountability for yourself so that you understand. This path over here is a dangerous path, like one of my favorite verses and I share it with the kids at camp and this speaks to that responsibility is Proverbs 426. Ponder the path of your feet, then all your ways will be sure. You can take whatever path you want, but you better think about where this path is going to go and you're responsible. You're responsible for the path that you take, but there is a path that can lead to righteousness, there is a path that can lead to fulfillment, there is a path that can lead to godly leadership. And that's on you. That is on you and you get to choose that. You mentioned jocco Willnick. I actually had gray read and I encouraged all the young men at church when we were in Gainesville to read extreme ownership. You need to read this, you need to understand. It's all on you. And then we studied from Ezekiel, especially the proverb of sour grapes. You know that's not us. We don't put the blame on anybody else. It's now on you. And and I think, if you want to just look at what's toxic, toxic is when our young men are not taught that they're responsible for all their own actions, for all their own thoughts, for all their own behaviors and For all their own consequences. It still comes back to you and you. You need to understand that one thing that a man will always do is take responsibility for his actions or the environment he's in. He may not been the one who caused all the problems, but he can be the one that can help people Fight through those consequences. Be the man and step up and lead.

Yeah, by the way, since I'm the one that brought up Andrew Tate, let me just make this clear. That is in no way. If you've never heard of the guy, please don't go look him up. What an absolute tool and what an absolute disgrace to manhood. So that's that. That was not why I brought him up. But you know, phil, you brought up, you know we think about the help father who is portrayed in the 50s and you don't need to go back that far. I mean, there's a few years between us. But I remember Thursday night, appointment television in my house was the Cosby show. Now, granted, that's got its own baggage now, but if you just look at it, from the way the father is portrayed in that show, yeah, he's lovable, yeah, he's goofy, but he's also the father and and well, yeah, what? But yeah, yeah, competent he's, he's a, he's a surgeon. But you know what it's interesting about? The same time that show finishes run Married with children, becomes probably the most popular television show on television. And that's a show. When my parents called me watching it, they grounded me for a month Because it's the exact opposite message in so many ways and that fathers an absolute idiot. If we're being honest, I don't know that man's ever gotten Our roles correct just on our own. Because even if we go back to okay, yeah, let's go back to, you know, when the when the man was the man and he ruled his, his castle, well, that really could devolve into Treating the wife, or treating them, the mother, as second-class. Well that's not scriptural? No, when God made man in the beginning, he made them male and female. That that's from the beginning. That's Genesis one. When you look at what God wants in the home, it's not this oh, here's, here's the man and he's. He's great and he's. You know, rules over all and the wife just kind of takes whatever's come. No, that's that's. That's not scriptural either. What is scriptural to what we've been saying is Leadership is placed on you, responsibility is placed on you. You're responsible for your choice, your response, for the consequences, all the things that Phil just went through. That's what is biblical and what we need to stress.

I Think the other thing that I would say about that is and you guys are welcome to disagree with this there are some characteristics that that are uniquely men. We generally, like Phil was talking about, we love competition. I, every guy I know, with the exception of just a few of us, me included probably has a sports team that they're pulling for. They're not pulling for that sports team to do okay, they're pulling for that sports team to win, and that that idea of competition is something that we kind of live on, that we thrive on. The competition can be taken to an extreme. Guys are also of this ilk where the idea of I don't know being having status there's only one picture on the baseball team and everybody wants to be the pitcher or the quarterback or the most prestigious Position in whatever sports team that you're in, and it's okay to have that ambition, but every guy knows there's only going to be one and I don't resent the guy who gets it, I just want it and the. Again, that goes right back to competition. We love competition and we generally respect competitors. That's not the same with women. Women are different than than us in that and I think one of the things that that Competition can be taken to an extreme and you need to avoid the extreme. But by the same token, you have to recognize that men just love competition. Likewise, guys like being aggressive. That has an extreme on that end, which Aggression that turns into violence. And, by the way, my boys love wrestling every once in a while. Is that violent? Yeah, to a certain extent it is. Safety in my family is not the number one concern, because some things are intrinsically unsafe and I want my children to engage in it, because safety means you don't know what the outcome is going to be. If you knew what the outcome was going to be, that's safe, but you don't grow in safety, you grow in discomfort and in risk-taking, and that intrinsically means you have to launch out, you have to choose, do something different. Are there stupid risks? Yes, should you avoid those? Yes, but and again, this is one and I got this from Jordan Peterson women are usually Really good at raising young children, because young children don't understand what an unreasonable risk is. When they get older, they begin to understand what an unreasonable risk is men. There's something that we call rough-and-tumble play, and Usually it's the fathers that introduce that to the children, and usually at the objections of their mothers. And Children need rough-and-tumble play so they can learn what a reasonable risk is and what an unreasonable risk is.

Oh yeah, actually this was so evident with our kids every night at bedtime. Jill went to bed with a princess carry, so she would stand on the end of the couch and she would let herself fall backwards and I would catch her and carry her, like a princess to bed, you know, and put her in bed, as we said, our parents. Gray, on the other hand, that was not the way he's going to bed and Personally, if he ever wanted it, I would just let him fall. He would not get that. Yeah, he went to bed with the bronking buck Right, that's where he jumped on dad's back and it was the bronking buck banging off the walls all the way down the hallway to his room. Mom would get mad at us because pictures would come off the wall sometimes, you know, but it was. It was a totally different scenario, and so we also, every night before he went to bed, generally, we played nerf hoot in his room and we did it a little different. There's no rules, there's no calling fouls, it's just whatever you got to do to get it in the hoop. That's what you do, and so it led to some bloody noses, it led it to bumps and bruises. It definitely led to a great disadvantage to me when he realized I'm not going for the ball anymore, I'll just go for dad's head because he goes, he goes and I know how to rule the situation and it was a blast. But it was just the idea that that aggression, that competition is there and we have to mold that yes, in a godly way To use it well. I mean, the first time your kids in a sport and he wants to win real bad and loses, and you see that bad sportsmanship come out which His father knows very well and it struggled with his entire life. I see it in him and I'm able to immediately try to start molding that Because I want him to be competitive. He's now in sales. That's a very competitive job market and he wants to be number one and that's exactly what I want him to be. You know, you learn to use those. How would you say just God given Characteristics, but try to use them in a godly way. And so we as men need to be mindful of the blessing in the curse scenario, even with that Aggression and action. And so men are more prone to have hobbies hunting, fishing, golf, things of that nature, which is all finding good, but if it starts dominating your life and taking you away from your wife and kids, then it's bad. Same thing with cheering for a sports team. I I'm gonna command Josh. He's wearing this Red Alabama sweatshirt. I have become a big fan of Nick Saban. I'm not an Alabama fan. My wife went to Auburn and if I don't say war eagle, she doesn't feed me. But Nick Saban. Nick Saban has has learned the art of motivation and doing things the right way. And and one of the things that is just stuck with me is this Highly motivated people do not like unmotivated people, and unmotivated people and lower achievers don't like highly motivated people and high achievers. It's not gonna work together and you have to decide if you're gonna get on that bus or you need to get off that bus. And so when it comes to our young men, we want them to be high achievers, but they have to recognize high achievers are not gonna like low achievers. And so this is that competition opportunity to use it and use it well. And if you're not gonna get on the bus of high achievement, then get off. With that comes an understanding that not only is it on me, but also I'm also on a team. I'm not an island to myself. God's given me these wonderful personalities to be aggressive, to be tough, to fight, to win. But I'm also on a team and that team is my family, that team is God's people, that team is those who I'm in relationship with and those are what I need to win first and foremost. Those relationships and the team concept me come second.

I really think it's interesting to how different endeavors allow for competition and growth. You go to the team, and so my youngest son just made his middle school flag football team. Well, he's an Auburn fan because, well, for two reasons, my parents were Auburn fans, my father was a veterinarian, he went to Auburn, and so that's the first reason. The second reason is it annoys me. So, that's why my youngest son is an Auburn fan.

Man. I just became a huge fan of Ethan, even more so. He has shot up.

So he's already, though, again just made his middle school flag football team, but he's already determined he will be the Auburn quarterback one day.

There you go.

Well, okay, that's great, but, of course, what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to bring him back down to earth and say son, I don't know that you're gonna play quarterback ever, right? What you can do is you can go out and do your best job, and if that means you're on defense and you're pulling flags off of the other team, then you've helped the team. So there's that of working for a greater good. My older son's a. He's in the band, and so there's that part. He wants to do his best, because if he does his best, the band sounds better, and so he's part of a whole, but he's also one that likes individual challenges, and that's kind of something a transformation I made in my life. I was a football player. I went to the University of Alabama. I hadn't gotten that out of my system, so I played rugby for a year. So that's a team sport that I do not recommend for anybody. If you think football is bad, rugby is infinitely worse, and so when I got that out of my system, though, and I started running, okay, and you can go and you can enter a 5K, you can enter 10K and you can try to win, but that's not why I found satisfaction in running If I did better than I did the last time, if I reached my potential right. That's what I got out of running. I was never going to be the one who won the 5K or won the 10K, but I could beat my time from the last time and that's what I found in my older son too. He'll find a challenge and he'll want to do it. Like we've done two tough mutters. I have no interest in doing a tough mutter, but he wants to and he wants to do it because it's a challenge to him and he wants to see if he can do better at that. So I think we can find all these things in life that emphasize these same principles of one. You're gonna have to be responsible for your effort, you're gonna have to put the effort in and in a team setting. That effort is important for everybody. But there's also the individual motivation. You put the effort in so that you can achieve what is your utmost potential, and there's spiritual ramifications for that as well. Yeah.

Let me, can I piggyback on that just a little bit, josh, of course that's an excellent point. With respect to you have no desire to do a tough mutter, but your son does. And so what you do as a parent, especially as a dad, you do it. You do it for the sake of your son. I mean, it's like the same way a dad would set and dress up for a tea party with his little girl and put on the tea era and totally go all in. Well, you need to have that same kind of attitude with your son to do the things that challenge him and even if it's not something you want to do, you do it for his sake so that he can experience that thrill of achievement. I think that's what motivates boys more than anything else is that thrill of victory, the thrill of achievement. And I know we don't want to spend our time on video games, but video games rob our sons of true achievement. I'm not saying they're all bad and I think it's okay to play in limited fashion, but a boy especially needs to have physical activity. He needs to have physical achievement and we don't need to be using the cop out of just letting them just go off to their rooms and find that in some kind of world that it's not real. They need to experience in real time action and physical activities, whether it is banned, whether it is a sports, whether it is running or whatever, and dads need to be a part of that. You do that together with your son, and that's where it goes. I mean, for Gray, he and I played golf until we moved to Gainesville and so he had no desire to play anymore and I'm like, oh, come on, this is awesome. No, I don't think he decided he wanted to play basketball. Oh, I'm terrible at basketball. So we start playing all the time and he on the basketball team. And then he got into physical fitness, because that's what the guys did in Gainesville, and Mark Lloyd Jr is a great influence in his life, and so now he's into lifting and so I change. I gotta change because I want to do these things with my son, and now that he's 25, he's back into golf. Woo, you know, but the thing is you need to be what they need you to be, to grow as men and learn to develop as a man, and part of that is the opportunity to achieve something, to win at something, to improve at something that's being a man.

One of the things that I'm gonna say, phil, is I completely agree that we do need to get behind, out from behind screens, I think, one of the things that every organization that has an online presence. They are basically incentivized by having more and more of your attention, and they will never willingly try to get rid of for your attention or have less of your attention. That is their motivation Facebook, instagram, any of the in the gaming platforms the more you give your attention to them, the more financial incentive they have to keep you, and so I completely agree with that. One of the things that I would say, though, was one of my sons. What I didn't recognize that was going on is he was playing his PlayStation every night with a bunch of boys from church, and, honestly, the game became background to them, having conversations online. Now they would not recognize this, but a lot of the things that they were talking about in the game system had more to do with how they were growing up. They were getting a lot of support from their peers, and, granted, that's the, in many ways, the blind leading the blind, because they don't have answers. They have more questions, and, at some points, it just makes more sense for them to be able to ask a stupid question in a non-threatening environment, and I think that's what's going on a lot there. That said, some of these games I'm thinking of the Call of Duty game, which is basically just non-stop violence, but I also understand boys like violence, and I was appreciative of the fact that he was talking over what was going on in high school with a bunch of other boys that he was going to church with. Do I think that there's definitely times that that goes overboard? Yes, when he has no more muscles left, when he doesn't know what the sun looks like, when grass is a foreign object to him. I completely agree. Everybody, I think, would do better off if they would eventually go outside, look at the sun and touch grass, because I think that grounds them in a real world. But I also see that there are advantages to it that I didn't understand when they were doing it, when they were playing games. That said, realize that every technology that you have has an upside and a downside and you have to learn how to moderate those technologies. You see what I'm saying.

Not that this is Phil's absolutely right the physical competition. The physical is certainly more important, but the video games that I would play with my kids there's a lot of Mario Kart, because I used to be good at Mario Kart and guess what? I never let my kids win. They beat me all the time. Now when we play but that was again one of those hurdles Okay, dad's good at this, I'm not as good at this, so dad's not going to just lay down and let you win. When you beat me, you beat me, and when you beat me, okay, you've accomplished something. Same thing with pool, same thing with ping pong, whatever it is. I'm not just going to let you win so that you can say, oh, I won and I feel good about myself. No, no, there's a challenge. I'm bigger, I'm stronger, I've played this more than you have. You get to where you can beat me and then you have something to be proud of. That's right.

Well, and Kenny, going back to your video game analogy, it still goes back to the community that you're with and I concede, I concede video games. You're a part of life now and I certainly am not one to just throw everything out the window and say it's all bad. But it's going to go back to your community and who's motivating you and what I want our young men to realize. You're going to become the average or the product of the five people or the people that you hang out with the most. That's who you're going to be and that's what you will become, and so you need to recognize that. And it goes back to you know, you got to surround yourself with godly people and if you're surrounding yourself with good people and you're playing a video game for maybe an hour a day, or you're sitting down with your friends and you all are able to communicate, you know that way I know Gray does that even now with all his buddies from Florida College. They're all scattered all over the nation and so one of their ways to get together is they'll play a game and they can communicate with each other during that game. Well, I'm definitely not going to dog on that in any way. That's great Cause. He's hanging around good people. But he's also with people who are high achievers, whether they're in medical school right now, whether they're management and construction companies, whether they're working in a business, you know. Whatever they're all responsible individuals, he's still with a good community.

We often try to appropriate the Bible to be a scientific manual, a history manual, a history book, a philosophy book, all these different things. And one of the things that I would say is the Bible is not an instruction manual on how to raise children. It is basically a revelation of God to us, in other words, talking about the character of God. That said, there are some direct applications that come from understanding the character of God and what it means to be a father to boys. What parts of Christianity need to be supplemented with street smarts, and what parts of Christianity do we need to start sacrificing parts of ourselves so that we're better at being dads to boys?

When I first heard this question I was like man, what do you exclude? So I just honed it down to one verse, and it's not a complicated one, it's just 1 Corinthians 13. Now abide these three faith, hope and love. And I'm thinking, okay, what does that mean for a son, a man, and the first with faith? That means you've got to learn to trust others. And as much as we're looking at achievement and doing our best and being a man, you're ultimately nothing without God. So that's what he's got to know Faith in God, faith in God's people. That's gonna be essential for making it through this life. Hope, well, what God provides is infinitely better. And you look at again the problems with masculinity and even manhood and how parents are even seeing their kids, their sons, kind of they lose them to, sometimes radical groups. It's because they're being told that here's the solution for this society. You buy into this political party, you buy into this movement and we're going to fix things. No, they're not. No one ever will. But hope God's providing something better. I don't want my sons to be angry young men, because I see way too many angry young men. I see way too many angry old men. I don't want that for them, and what I see in the angry old and young men is they just don't have any hope. They don't think that God's gonna see us through this and that God's providing something better. So I've got to get Matt and, of course, to my sons and then, of course, the others love and let God define that of what love is you know, love for God and our fellow man. Now where the street smarts come in is how do you apply those principles to the particular circumstances and cultural context in which we live? Now? My oldest son is in public school. We have based where our kids go to school, on their demeanor, on their character, and not that one's better than the other. Just we. You know public school something he's handling okay. We've got our younger son in a private school, the one that Florida College is associated with, and there's a reason for that. So, but our older son has faced things in middle and high school that never was even brought up in my upbringing. He's got some real challenges with you know some of the people in his class and their worldview and what they buy into Faith, open love. Do you trust God? Do you trust the direction I'm trying to take you? Do you hope that there's something better and that that God's gonna see you through this, and can you love even those who are very different or not trying to live the way that you're trying to live? But you can at least think the best of them, hope the best for them, try to serve them in some way and maybe make an impact on their life. That's where the street smarts come in, at least. As I'm thinking of the question, you may have had something else in mind there.

Well, after listening to Josh's answer, I don't like mine anymore. This is definitely better, but I will go ahead and go with what I've got here instead of trying to change on the fly what jumped out to me when I thought of this? I know and I understand that the Bible isn't specifically an instruction manual to parents, but in many ways it's just a manual not only of life, but of our Father Himself and of His expectations and His love for us. And the one thing that we, Cheryl and I, try to do, or try to do and still do, with our kids now that they're older and I think your verses and your focus change as they grow and develop now that they're adults Our focus has been James 1, 26 and 27. And what you find in there is not only a description of true religion. You find a description of what is a true godly person. If anyone thinks he's religious and does not bridle his tongue, their religion is useless. But pure and undefiled religion before the Father is this to visit orphans and widows in their time of trouble and to keep oneself unspotted from the world. And so what you see there is just the threefold responsibility we all have in our life. We have a duty to self, self-control. Learn to bridle your tongue and it's not just the tongue. How you use your body, how you use your resources, how you use your time, your energy, your money. You know you control that. That's your duty to self and you use the Spirit's guidance in the Word and in your life and in your heart to become a person who is excelling at self-control. You challenge yourself physically, you grow in these areas, so you have a duty to self. The second thing you have a duty to others. You're not an island to yourself and you especially have a duty to those who are helpless and in need the orphan and the widow your time and your money. You're not just making money in your professions now to pay your own bills. You're doing it as the Lord instructs us, so that you'll have something to give to others. And you give to others your time, your energy. You have a duty to others. And then you have a duty to God that you live a sanctified life that is not consumed and, you know, spotted by the world, but you are sanctified. You have a higher calling and I think when we can help our children see that that they have a higher calling, they have a higher purpose. I think that gives them the motivation to see and understand not just who their father is, but who he's called them to be, and ultimately that's what we're trying to get into our kids' hearts. Your father is God. I'm just a steward of your soul.

I think one of the things that I would say and again, you guys are welcome to disagree with this the Bible is a series of and this sounds like it's reductive, and I'm not trying to make it simpler than it is it's a series of truisms and things that actually will guide your life, and they will be very good guides for your life, but when you look at what life looks like today, the Bible has nothing to say about the Internet. The Bible also has nothing to say about online pornography, but that does not mean that God's okay with that. It also means that, as a father, you're going to have to interpret some of these things for your children so they understand what the Bible means by this that these truisms, this instruction, has to have application put to it, and part of your job as a father is to make these applications stick. And, by the way, one of the things that we've talked about the idea of the addictive nature of online everything. Now being able to go anywhere without the availability of a screen is something that, on the one hand, makes me very happy because I don't get lost anymore, because Google tells me where to go. I am so bad with maps and I'm so bad with navigation that I have been so thrilled that Google knows where I am and how far I am from where I need to be. Thank you, google. But by the same token, the same thing that's in my pocket can waste my time, can show me images, and my son's images that they do not need to be privy to Again. I'm going back to that idea of pornography, because I think it's one thing that children, especially younger boys, don't understand how dangerous that can become, because it's something that number one. They're not exposed to it and then all of a sudden they learn about sex and then they immediately have access to everything that is wrong about sex and I think that's a danger, especially for boys. I think the danger is different for girls. I think it is basically reputation and status and basically putting themselves in stories where they are well, I mean to say this one way. I mean it's a romance novel. They want to be basically the main character in a romance novel, which I think it's fine in some ways, but in some ways that loses what they want and what they aspire to. But for boys it's different, because boys usually go after instant gratification, which, by the way, I'm not against. I'm not saying that I'm for pornography, but I think one of the things in a good relationship there's somebody that needs to be able to learn how to set the right goal and there's somebody that needs to be able to say this is the journey, enjoy the journey, and both of those things are important. I think men generally basically say enjoy the journey, and I think women are usually better at saying this is where we need to end up, and I think you need both sides of that coin. You need to appreciate where you are and also appreciate where you're trying to go. But when it comes to this, this idea of boys are in especially a dangerous spot, because instant gratification is what we usually like. Pornography is one of the things that can take them down a really dark road. What advice would you give for fathers? What advice would you give for those of us who are trying to raise boys, who probably don't recognize where this is headed?

Something that I've resolved to do, not only as a father, but as a preacher, is we want to be a principled people, and I think in a lot of these discussions whether it be pornography or fornication or whatever we want to talk about I've been pretty heavy handed on that. Don't do this, don't do this, don't do this. Okay, and that's perfectly right to say, yeah, don't do this. This is not right in the eyes of God, but you go to that passage in Hebrews 13 when he talks about that God is going to judge fornicators and adulterers. The first thing God says, though, is that marriage is honorable and the marriage bed is undefiled, that the greater principle here isn't don't engage in sex before marriage or don't look at pornography. Those are principles. Those are things we ought to take in life, but the greater principle is there's something really really good about marriage, and why pornography is so dangerous is because it is perverting people's viewpoint of what marriage is and what marriage can be and should be. So what I have to do first is, before I just get to the don't do this and don't go down this road, I need to model and I need to instruct. Okay, here's what's really good. Yeah, here's why you don't want to go down this path, because God set the path over here that, if you'll go down, this path is ultimately going to be infinitely better than this other one you were thinking about going down.

Right. I love the way Josh has phrased that and put that, because that is something we try to do with the boys, especially at camp, and I think this is something parents have got to understand. Boys are visual, men are visual, and we need to recognize that. Now, and I will say this we get a lot of challenges sometimes for our dress code at camp or in other activities that are church related, and I just need the mamas to understand. I have young men come to me and say Mr Phil, the yoga pants are killing me. Mr Phil, thank you so much for having strict guidelines at camp. I need a week where I don't have to worry about those things and I get that, and that's one of the things that we need to recognize as parents, whether it's with our boys or our girls, that God made us visual creatures, and so I think it's safe to assume anybody listening that we all understand pornography, lusting those things. Those are clear commands in scripture. You need to be mindful of that. That is a path our young men can take, and if we're giving a kid a cell phone without boundaries and without our restrictions, you're giving them pornography. Don't think you're not. You have put it in their hands, and parents need to be wise to that and we need to be mindful that when we give our children these tools, we're giving them a gateway to these kind of visual images and these kind of challenges. But on the other hand, let me just build on what Josh is saying. That's a blessing, not always a curse, that you're visual. What you need to do is make your vision what God would want it to be, so that you desire the godly woman, so that the woman in Proverbs 31, when you see her in her service, when you see her in her humility, when you see her in her attitude, that you see that and go oh my, that is attractive, because that's the woman who will be able to fulfill you. And that's not just in sexual gratification or things that we see with our eyes from that point of view, but also in what we see in our relations with others, what we see when our athletic desires and everything else. We need to have our eyes fixed on what God would want us to see. And here's the way I think men can help their sons do that when we're honest with our boys about what challenges us physically. What I've got to be mindful of is a daddy, of what I'm seeing and what I'm focused on, and I think one of the best things we can show this to our kids is when we can help them see what is attractive. I remember this is funny Gray and I were walking across the campus he couldn't have been but like 12 years old and we're walking across the UF campus going to a basketball game and I can't remember where we had to park, but we had to walk past some of the dorms and these two girls went by us and you would not have known the difference in a street walker, in a college student, when they walked by us. And I remember it was one of those things where he's real young and I'm like, oh, my word, I know he saw that and he noticed it. I noticed it. We got by and I'm like, okay, what do I say? This is one of those teaching moments, what do I say? And I just remember saying so, gray, you think they're going to church and he goes. No way, no way. And we just laughed. I said yeah, yeah, and we just went on to the game. Yeah, but it was also an opportunity for me to let him know yeah, I saw it also, I saw it also. So what are we going to do with this? And boys are visual. We need to be mindful of that. But let's help them turn their heads and see what is good.

And when they don't be, the father that helps them. Because I think one of the things that is often a blind spot in many congregations is that we assume nobody has this problem and almost everybody does, and I worry that sometimes this goes this is what you should do, but we don't talk about what happens when you cave, that this is the problem that you have, not the problem you shouldn't have. You see what I'm saying.

Isn't that something you all done in university? Don't you all have like a men's devotion group? Y'all have actually talked about this openly and shared and discussed things like this addictions or one of them.

Yeah, we try to take. The last year was the first year, but we took some Saturdays and did a men's study. We called it ready to fight and the point was you know, god's given us the armor and the tools to fight what we're struggling with. And pornography was the first subject we talked about and talked about that at length. But our aim is to do that again this year.

Yeah, did you take your sons.

I took my oldest. Jared was 13 at the time. I took him Ethan, you know, but that's also again to personality. I've got a 14-year-old old man. I've got a 11-year-old who sleeps with 50 teddy bears, so it's something that's. Those are things that I yeah, I know that Jared, I've got to make sure he's prepared for this. Ethan's still, you know, he's still. He's still a kid.

Yeah, that's great. Well, and I appreciate the, I appreciate the shepherds there in the congregation for being mindful of that, and I think that's part of raising our boys that they see that and understand that and that dad is honest. Well, hey, these are my challenges too. We can work on this together.

Yeah, and that's. I think that's one of the struggles. I think one of the things that we've done in churches often is we've set up shame and guilt and we often don't give them alleviation from that shame and guilt. How do you fix that? Because I think everybody has had has stumbled in this area at some point.

Can you celebrate your victories? That's exactly. You celebrate the victories when either men overcome or they don't engage, and or you. Just to me, we need to celebrate marriage more. You know we have an announcement list where we'll announce everybody who's sick and everything wrong with them. I think we should announce every anniversary and anybody who's been married over 30 years. There should be just standing applause. You know there's a couple that is fighting the fight and doing it together because that's what God has called us to be, and I think we need to do that in our young men's life. Celebrate those victories when they achieve things spiritually, emotionally, physically and mentally. You celebrate those things when they're on a good path. Yeah.

So many of our prayer requests are for people who are experiencing illness or going through something that's hard, but we don't. We don't celebrate very often and we don't celebrate very well sometimes. Alright, guys, what did I miss?

Phil brought this into it a little bit, but I'll just echo that. You know we've talked about being fathers to sons. Sons need their mothers too. They have to have both. I and maybe it's because I've forgotten a lot of my own failings from when I was a kid, I don't know. But you know I can be pretty hard on the boys from time to time and Janna brings the soft touch, the compassion sometimes where it's lacking on my part, and they need that. And even you know from God's word. You know Phil mentioned the in the proverbs about you know, son, listen to me. But the wise men didn't say simply listen to me, heed your mother's instruction. You know it's not. It's not just oh, here's your dad, listen to him. Well, here's your mom too, and you need to listen to her. And if you listen to both of us, chances are you get a whole lot more of the full counsel of God than you would from just one of us.

Yeah, and you haven't missed anything, and I just appreciate Josh and his insight so very much. The only thing I think I would add is this Rearing children is a challenge, but, boy, it's also a joy. Cheryl and I, for now, we've been truly blessed with two kids, and they're making their own decisions. Who they are now has nothing to do with me. It's what they're choosing to become and do. There's no greater joy in life. When your kids are good, life is good. Nothing else matters. And I will just say to anybody out there who's listening if there's anything that I can do, especially to help you or your children, especially your kids younger and camp age, let me know. I'd love to help and I know Josh would too. Amen, because there's no greater joy in life than being able to enjoy kids, and we're going to love our kids regardless. And I think one other thing that our kids always need to know no matter what you've done, no matter where you've been, no matter how bad you think things are, you can always come home. I will always love you, and love you fiercely, regardless.

I end on my podcast with Be Good and Do Good. What's good about raising boys?

First, it's a lot of fun. We've stated that Neither of my sons are just like me, but we do do a lot of things together With Jared. We like a lot of the same nerd stuff, you know.

Star Wars.

Harry Potter, you know all this kind of stuff. We sit down and watch that and engage in that. He likes physical challenges, so that's just really fun doing that with him. Ethan's my sports and games kid. He loves sports, he loves playing games and just always doing that Even Indian things that I don't necessarily care for, but I wind up playing a game of Pokemon with him just about every day.

And.

I don't know who any of the characters are, but it can be a fairly fun game to play and you know so it's a lot of fun. But the other thing I said a couple hours ago now it seems like God knew I needed to be challenged, and my sons have provided that in my life. They've helped me grow a lot.

Yeah Well, I'll just echo what Josh says. I tell you Gray's just been a joy and I've learned a lot about myself in rearing him and I've learned how I need to adapt in many ways. And we're at the point now where we're listening to our children's advice. There's nothing more humbling when your kids set you down and say, all right, mom and dad, here's what we noticed and here's what y'all got to work on. And there's great comfort in listening to your kids at those times and go. You know what? I think they're right and that is a joy. And Gray and I are playing trips together and we're actually doing a savage race together. But there's nothing more enjoyable than when you hear that your son has given the table talk at church or he's joined somebody in a Bible study group or he's initiated some gathering or something. And it's at that moment that you realize this wasn't about me. This wasn't about me at all and I don't want my son to be like me and I want him to see and understand he wants to be like his Lord, and when those things take place there's just great joy in that and so I love my son dearly and so God is blessing me greatly.

Okay, all right, phil, you put your foot into it. One of the things you said was that you'd be happy to help other people If somebody would. And then you volunteered Josh for exactly the same thing. If somebody wanted to get ahold of you, how would they? How could they get ahold of you?

They can reach me via email really easy robertsonp at floridacollegeedu. So just shoot me an email. You can catch me through the college real easy. And or you could just call the college, leave me a message, but I would be happy to share and just so you know, if you're reaching out to me, you're really reaching out to Cheryl. She's the brains in the operation and so I will certainly consult her, but I'd be more than happy to try to help, or, as I often see myself as a first responder in situations, I can give you initial advice but lead you to somebody who can really help you even more so.

Yeah same thing, email is really easy, josh Creel at gmailcom. Creel is with a, c and all the things that Phil just said. I don't know a lot of things. I'm a pretty good listener and then I can generally find somebody that knows what you're, what you're dealing with, and try to lead you to that person.

All right, guys, thanks for this. I really appreciate it. Both of you guys mean a lot to me. Phil, you have taken care of my kids at camp for far too many years, and my kids say nothing but good things about you. I've tried to counter every one of the things that they say good about you, because I know you're better than that, josh. You've become a very good friend and I appreciate what you're doing. I'll go ahead and tell you I'm glad that I'm going to be there to help your boys get over your parenting. So I mean, I think you've got two very, very good young men. So anyway, thank you very much for doing this, guys.

No problem, kenny, thank you. Thanks, kenny.

As I was editing this conversation, I realized that there was a lot of overlap between how you raise boys and girls. That said, I think especially Phil does a really nice job of talking about how he treated his daughter versus how he treated his son. Scooping up his daughter to put her to bed as a princess sounds very familiar to me, and being the bucking bronco for his son yeah, that's been my experience too. I think one of the things that I appreciate is my sons and daughters share a lot of the same similarities, but boys love competition and my girls love to work together. That's not always true, but I do think in general. If I think somebody needs to work together, I'm probably approaching my girls first, and if I want to try to inspire them to compete well, I think that's where my boys naturally fall in line. In some ways, I worry about boys. I worry about them finding a direction in life, but I also worry about my daughters, just in different ways. When it comes to wishes for my kids, I want them both to do well. I don't want one to fail and the other to succeed. I want them to be the heads of families where they are doing the very best they can with what they have. I also want them to be in a relationship with God. That matters. Phil, josh, thanks for talking to me about this. You guys are good guys. You're good dads. I appreciate giving a little bit of your insight into how I might be able to raise my own boys. As for the good thing I'm thinking about, that university is starting up its semester within the next few days and I'm looking forward to it. Yes, it has been a hard row for oh, I don't know less year, year and a half, but I still love seeing students and this is still a job that I think is both important and makes a difference and a critical point in their lives. I'm glad God has given me this job. I see this as more than just a way to make an income, but also make a difference. So until next time, let's be good and do good.